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Brexit Wars 3

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#23086

Pete, I cannot see the DUP supporting ‘the deal’ - if it is as I expect - it contains an all Ireland Customs Union (of sorts). The DUP will never agree to a border in the Irish sea that separates them from the rest of their beloved UK.

It will be ‘amusing’ to see Rees-Mogg come up with a reason to support the deal and break with the DUP.

The ‘big’ question will be whether Johnson has to offer a 2nd referendum to win the vote in the HoC.

PS: I’m still not convinced there will be a deal in the coming week…I had thought that both sides had gone into ‘the tunnel’ but actually they are in ‘intense negotiations’. A lot will depend on the attitude of Stephen Barclay (who has the reputation of ‘bad cop’ to Johnson’s ‘good cop’).


#23087

No, it doesn’t mean that. It means that people should ask themselves why they particularly and often exclusively look at Israel and don’t care when it’s some other state. Where is the outrage about the Saudis bombing in Yemen or now Turkey in Syria? It stays on a political or diplomatic level. It doesn’t cause the same passion or acts of solidarity as with Palestinians and that has a reason people must explore inside themselves.

…and that Soros receives more hate than he would were he not Jewish is obvious to me and is obvious to anyone if you look at the parallels to Nazi propaganda against him.


#23088

It’s a common tactic of the modern extreme right to express in a way that their followers understand, but remain nebulous and open to interpretation when they are criticised. An example is the statement of ab AfD politician about the Holocaust memorial in Berlin: “we Germans are the only people in the world that built a monument of shame in the heart of its capital”

So what did he mean by that? That only Germans humiliated themselves with such a monument? Or that the Holocaust was a national shame.?Which of the two versions did he want his audience to understand?

You have to know the context. The context about that speaker was a profound racial background known from many other speeches and publications. The context about Soros is that he is hated by the extreme right and neo-nazis for supporting NGOs that promote democratic values, tolerance and open society. The context is also that there circulate the weirdest conspiracy theories about him.

So, I don’t need JAR to explicitly mention his religion. I know where his sources are. We cannot make it so easy to the haters to hide behind rhetoric tricks and formalities.


#23089

Where do you live? It must be somewhere with no access to Television, Radio, Newspapers or the Interweb…The Saudi’s have been severely condemned for their war in Yemen (using British armaments)…and the Turks also are being told they must stop attacking the Kurds immediately.

The Turks have a history of annexing land of neighbouring countries and don’t give a damn (I’m thinking Cyprus). But the Turks have the ‘threat’ they will release millions of Syrian refugees into Europe.

With Allies like the Turks who needs enemies.


#23090

Spot on @arsanias

This board is populated by a number of people who take everything at face value and believe implicitly their own Government’s responses and Media.
Thickos can be Remainers as well as Leavers… the likes of Oily and John are good examples.

The current narrative is to feel sorry for the Kurds… and because ‘they did most to defeat ISIS’… yet it isn’t true. The Syrian Army has… and continues… to wipe out ISIS in their own country. It is they who have been dismantling ISIS… yet when they carry on do that like in Idlib… the hollow cries that they are bombing civilians and using chemicals is heard
Meanwhile, the Western Media are unhappy that the invading US forces in Syria … uninvited and unwelcome… in a sovereign, democratic country… are now… supposedly… pulling out… immediately followed by the largest land grab in recent years by an invading force. Yet in our Press… it’s all about the Kurds… yet Turkey is invading and taking over a large strip of Northern Syria.

Then we have Israel… continuing to illegally build estates on land that isn’t theirs… and the response from Western Governments… nothing… except continue to support them.


#23091

Everybody has the right to campaign for reversing whatever democratic result as long as that campaign itself remains democratic. If you criticize that you again demonstrate a lack of understanding of democratic principles.

And I must say that unlike brexit supporting wealthy people, Soros is open and honest about his motivation. The question is still why you pick him and not other donators?

And then we have Farage regurgitating a well known conspiracy theory about replacing white Europeans with refugees by saying Soros sought “to undermine democracy and to fundamentally change the makeup, demographically, of the whole European continent”

It’s all from the same dirty corner.


#23092

In TV and for how long? What I’m talking about is the passion of people and their beliefs. You don’t find that and the current discussion is a good example. When it’s Israel it’s becoming personal and everybody has an opinion. It’s obsessive.

Even the connection between a Jew and Israel is already misled. Can the guy not simply be Hungarian?


#23093

Arsanias, but you brought this subject up!!!

It’s ‘almost’ like people who disagree with you on this subject are somehow anti-Israel & anti-Jewish…it simply isn’t so. I just disagree with you on this one topic.

Indeed Jar has clarified his viewpoint on Israel & it’s people…but will that be good enough?!

Perhaps you’ve formed your opinion and nothing he says or does will change that. Perhaps that would be a sign of the very intolerance you object to in others. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

He’s Hungarian-American (by Citizenship).


#23095

it may be of interest for some of you to read this about Soros and anti-semitism:

Personally, I agree that JAR did not use anti-semitic terminology and for that reason I didn’t join Arsanias in flagging JAR’s post. I did think, though, that he was doing one of his usual wind-ups.

JAR says he supports the state of Israel and is not anti-semitic and I have no reason to disbelieve him. It is a common position on the RW of politics as we see with The Groper.

Cheers,

Frog in a tree


#23096

plays the race game whenever it suits…


#23097

Pete, listening to snippet of the LBC conversation with Farage responding to a caller, it doesn’t appear that he said what the headline infers:

‘Jews Should Concern Americans More Than Russian Influence, Nigel Farage Says’ [Newsweek Headline]

What he seems to have said (according to the article & contained video clip) is:

"He turned the conversation to Jewish lobbies after a caller had suggested the pro-Israel lobby was as dangerous to the U.S. as the Kremlin.

That’s a reasonable point,” Farage told the caller.

There are about 6 million Jewish people living in America, so as a percentage it’s quite small, but in terms of influence it’s quite big.”

There are other very powerful lobbies in the United States of America, and the Jewish lobby, with its links with the Israeli government, is one of those strong voices," Farage said on his London-based radio show.

[https://www.newsweek.com/trump-russia-jewish-farage-brexit-698486]


#23098

Farage has had a “real” job by the way. He was a commodities trader… like his brother who was a broker on LME… and his father was a stockbroker. Only for a few years though… about a decade.
His EU MEP salary and pension have served him well.


#23099

In the interests of fairness I have to admit I didn’t know the context, didn’t know (or care) that Soros is Jewish and might easily have made the same mistake as @john.a.reeves criticising a Leave financial backer (I know nothing about their race, creed or religion, some of them may be Jews for all I know. Or even Welsh!).

So while I commend your sensitivity to anti-semitism (a phrase I hate as Arabs are semites too, yet Israelis themselves are the masters of changing language meaning for propaganda) I’m quite prepared to give Mr. Reeves a pass on this one. (And on his reference to diversity at his local Conservative party, clumsy though it may have been, @J_Westlock)

I thought the picture you posted of Soros being manipulated like a puppet in obvious imitation of Nazi propaganda was awful and you were right to bring it to our attention.

It is that kind of post that gets delivered on social media to individuals deemed to be in sympathy as adverts but used to appear to be mainstream posts. They then spread the message or feel it is acceptable. This is how modern activist groups work with such agendas and social media is still trying to catch up and banish the practice. A practice which is a great threat to democracy and peace generally.

@john.a.reeves may have been taken in by such a post if he uses social media, but I don’t believe he had any intention of trying to further any agenda by his mention of Soros. Why would he post here if he did? He knows half of us ignore his posts and he isn’t going to change the minds of any of the dozen or so regular posters on this thread. I doubt too many people besides those posters read the thread.

I think I’ve mentioned before that I have been the victim of pro-Israeli hate campaigns because I posted a book review using the word holocaust about WWII without capitalising it. I’ve also been the victim of a similar campaign by a German neo-nazi group for a book review I wrote about Guy Gibson’s autobiography. It isn’t pleasant. Let’s not be taking sides here with either such extreme groups, I say.

You’ve made your point, again, why not move on? Its a Brexit thread which is controversial enough without bringing up Israel and justifying their wrongs by listing those of other countries.

Start a new thread perhaps. I can tell you about my part-Jewish descended uncle who ran from a building under attack by Israeli terrorists wearing British army uniforms and was waved aside by a crew manning a machine gun as he exited the building … and then cut his best friend in half as he came out behind him. “I don’t know to this day why they didn’t shoot me”, he said. I suppose the fact he looked more like a Jewish stereotype than most Jews just never occurred to him.


#23100

No sense of humour these fascist types:

Snigger.

IMHO,

SBK


#23101

Usually in the circles where they pass those stories about Soros around they know he is jewish and JAR knows it too, because we talked about it already in February in this thread.

Actually, he is portrayed as the puppet master that controls the politician. That is a standard topic of Nazi propaganda of the Jewish world conspiracy that tries to control everything through their proxies in politics, economy and culture and acts against “the people”. So, action against Jews was “defense” of the people vs. the elite. We know that.

With his spelling of "the Guardian / ‘Soros Central’ " he reiterates that topic that there is a jewish controlled or influenced “central”. What is a “central”? It’s a small group per definition, not the mainstream. So, he doesn’t acknowledge that what the Guardian or Soros stand for are mainstream. It must be somehow prompted by a small group with an agenda. Who? The “elite”? The elite of which a wealthy Jew is part of?

Very well known propaganda.

I think he might be dumb enough to just regurgitate what goes around in those echo chambers. You see a lot of that crap there and he might not even notice that he is being fooled and abused.

I just don’t think Brexiteers should sink so low to become related to the extreme right/antisemitic circles. They should rather realize that their beloved project is just another vehicle of the extreme right to poison the minds of people. It’s like a Trojan horse. With Brexit they reach out to an audience that is not originally close to their ideology. Is there any far-right / neoazi group that does not applaud to Brexit?


#23102

Not to my knowledge. Which was the main argument I vocalised for voting against Brexit pre Referendum, that a vote for Brexit would be voting alongside Nazis. Unfortunately, many normal voters accused me of Project Fear or over-stating the threat.

Now we hear that right wing extreme terrorists are the biggest threat to the country, hate crimes have been rising and hate speech is reported daily, often from our own government.


#23103

Arsanias - hi
In a Brexit loathing ‘echo chamber’ where the ‘accepted ‘ view against ‘Brexiteers’ is almost universally prejudiced, ill-informed,myopic and self-justifying . This is a classic m8.
I woul say that someone would have to pull out all the stops to beat this post for its level of sanctimonious rubbish.
JAR


#23104

There was always the danger that Brexit would open Pandora’s box…indeed there has been a documented increase in hate & racist crimes since the referendum. The real issue is that the ‘leadership’ of the Brexit party & probably also the Tories are inciting these ‘people’ with rhetoric about ‘people versus the establishment elite’ & ‘Surrender Acts’…it is very dangerous, inflammatory language designed to divide & stoke up hatred. The lowest of the low from people who should be providing leadership & setting examples…but I suspect they have no moral compass.


#23105

Indeed. I expected it from the Brexit party, but not from the Tories. It is a measure of how far we have fallen.


#23106

You wonder why people think that many Brexiters are RW racists nuts?

What groups do you think are targeted by the LEAVE campaign??


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