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Brexit Wars 3

lse:hsba
lse:lloy
lse:barc

#24535

If you aren’t thick… then it’s easy to understand.
You can’t vote or agree a Deal when you don’t know what the basics of the Deal is between the UK and the EU… because it hasn’t been negotiated/agreed yet.


#24536

Oilovlam,

As you persist with quibbling in seeing something that isn’t there in a mere adjective, note that I’ve used far more colourful & unrestrained descriptions for Johnson, IDS, McVey, Francois, Leadsom, Farage, et al. If you find the relatively mild “bovine” questionable, I’d steer clear of the usually more refined Guardian & Independent. You’ll find Swinson frequently gets far worse stick in their comments section. :wink:

Patently, I can’t stand her as a politician. But not only for her unprovoked personal attacks on Corbyn quite early after becoming Lib Dem leader, including claiming he was “unfit” to be PM. It was Swinson who destroyed any chance of any political “understanding” during this key GE, not Corbyn.

Moreover, if you look at her voting record when Lib Dems were in Coalition with the Tories, you’ll see she freely & invariably voted in favour of austerity measures, as well as raised tuition fees.

Contrary to your claims, Clegg made no demands on Lib Dem MPs about following orders. Of 57 Lib Dem MPs in coalition with Cameron, 21 voted against increasing tuition fees.

She’s recently reiterated her stance that she’d never have any deal with Corbyn, even to deliver a 2nd Referendum & again questions his fitness to be PM. Considering Brexit is for keeps & any coalition government very finite, I take nothing back. Bovine is another term for stupid. Politically, that’s how I see her stance.

From reading around, I see she’s now also losing potential Labour switchers in Lib Dem marginal seats. How crass is that in the context of the importance of stopping Brexit! - GL. Edit: added an overlooked “at”.


#24537

Have to agree Jack… Swinson has shown herself to lack any tactical awareness and has merely jumped at the chance to get as many votes as poss for the Lib Dems… her primary concern.
She is just a massive disappointment and it shows how the Lib Dems only real intention is to be in coalition with some future Tory Government.

As you have pointed out, this is what she said less than a month back… if ever there was a moment that handed the Election win to the Tories, this was it:
"
Speaking to Ridge on Sunday on Sky News, Ms Swinson said that Boris Johnson is also “not fit to be Prime Minister”, and said that the public deserve better choice.
She added that there are no circumstances under which she would support Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of a caretaker government.
She also said she believes that Jeremy Corbyn “doesn’t have the numbers” to be able to lead any necessary interim government.
Pushed on whether there are any circumstances under which she would back a Mr Corbyn led interim government, Ms Swinson said: “No. Jeremy Corbyn is not fit to be prime minister. Boris Johnson is not fit to be Prime Minister. And the country deserves a better choice than either of those two.”
"
source: https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/uk/swinson-says-corbyn-is-not-fit-to-be-prime-minister/


#24538

Hi Fiat,

Thanks. Indeed, they’ll no doubt calm down again, but most probably only to get more heated later on. Then repeat. Fair to say that as this inordinately important GE gets ever closer, things are likely to become far more passionate still in many places. Then after the result, we’ll probably read plenty of recriminations & scapegoating about who was to blame most, etc. Those kind of arguments by their nature are rarely that balanced as people understandably defend the political party they favoured.

As I can’t guarantee refraining from rash posts made in the heat of the moment, I shall focus on my trading for a while after this one. Having one’s views distorted, in this case with alleged sexism, is always bound to raise the temperature a bit. - Regards.


#24539

“Jeremy Corbyn is not fit to be prime minister. Boris Johnson is not fit to be Prime Minister. And the country deserves a better choice than either of those two."

Swinson’s position is quite reasonable whether you agree or not. It is her opinion.

What would happen after the election if she was in a position to join a coalition is another matter entirely.

The Nick Cohen article explains my dilemma perfectly but I shall have to hold my nose and hope that Brexit can be derailed and worry about Corbyn later.

At the moment the cadres of our elected MPs on both sides of the house is being diluted in terms of quality as more and more members choose to support extreme positions.

Frog in a tree


#24540

It’s a stupid position. She’s just slagged off the two candidates of which one WILL be PM after the December election. How irresponsible is that given that it is highly likely that a hung Parliament would ensue.

She doesn’t even explain how her “opinion” is formed… just mouths off like big mouth Oily.

She seems to just want to play “tough” but it just makes her position ridiculous.
She won’t last long. She will be out 12 months from now.


#24541

Oili,

Effectively you accused Jack of being a woman hater when in fact he was only targeting one woman, Swinson, and not the blessed Nicola. Maybe you owe an apology?

Frog


#24542

JW, given that Swinson is trying to attract Remainer defectors from both parties it was not an unreasonable position to take. In the event of holding the balance of power she would have bargaining power and I suspect that she would form an alliance based on a willingness to hold a confirmatory referendum. It just may never happen of course.

Frog


#24543

FIAT - hi

Thanks for sending the George Soros link earlier about the rise of nationalism which (having been out), I’ve only just read
His conclusion seems to be pretty dejected:
'All we can depend on is our convictions.
I am committed to the goals pursued by open societies, win or lose’
Doesn’t sound like he has any answer - or hope of turning things around (I guess except throwing more money at the problem).
JAR


#24544

I suspect a lot of that Swinson rhetoric on Corbyn is electioneering aimed at maximising the Lib Dem vote…which is part of her job. After the election it will all be forgotten IF Labour needs her MP’s to become PM.

The ‘fact’ that some current & former Labour MP’s also think Corbyn wouldn’t make a good PM…that’s more worrying for him & his PR machine. You can expect other parties to be rude but friendly fire is harder to take I imagine.

Wishful thinking isn’t going to win JC the election…so if he were a ‘sensible’ politician he would talk to that ‘cow’ Swinson and do what’s good for the country and do what is most likely to get him into No.10…but I suspect he is too proud for that. Pride comes before a fall.


#24545

The ‘fact’ that some current & former Labour MP’s also think Corbyn wouldn’t make a good PM…that’s more worrying for him & his PR machine. You can expect other parties to be rude but friendly fire is harder to take I imagine.

Three years ago in a confidence vote, Labour MPs voted 172 to 40 against Corbyn who was only saved by the Momentum vote. Says it all.

Frog in a tree


#24546

Agreed. It says that many Labour MPs are well past their sell by date, out of touch with their membership and simply make populist remarks to try and retain the only “job” they will ever have.

When they stand for any other party… they disappear into obscurity.


#24547

Slagging off individuals (without proper explanation) rather than detailing your policies is what she consistently engages in.
Little better than Johnson.


#24548

Oilovlam,

I sincerely hope it’s “electioneering” from Swinson. But there’a always the risk of it back-firing if it goes too far. Especially with any repeated, personalised strong rhetoric. Sometimes there’s just no undoing the rifts created. As we may agree, Brexit is too important for that. It’d be quite different if it was an ordinary GE. This one is far from that.

Let’s not take things too literally. For example, Nicholas Soames, MP, presumably a highly educated man, recently used the same term with reference to the Tory Chief Whip. I believe that’s a certain Mark Spencer, MP. I likewise used it irrespective of Swinson’s gender. But in view of my respect for all creatures, including domestic farm animals (hence I don’t eat them), perhaps “bovine” wasn’t the best adjective to use. - GL.

“A really stupid, bovine thing to do’: Tory MP condemns removal of whip from Michael Heseltine”.


#24549

A perfectly correct analysis of the situation at the time.

  • Corbyn didn’t have the number of MP’s he would have needed to be leader of a Unity government
  • Neither Corbyn nor BoJo are PM material…and the country does deserve better.

Nothing in what she said was controversial (IMO)…just the truth.


#24550

Hopefully I didn’t accuse JD of hating women…if it did come across that way then I apologise, of course.

I was trying to find out why JD dislikes Swinson so much…I was just wondering if her being a woman was part of the reason. I have thought it several times because each time he mentions Swinson he is quite negative about her…whilst other politicians (say Nick Clegg) get an easier ride. It has been in my mind for quite a while and today I rather clumsily put that question to him.

Personally I think Swinson is doing as good as she can to stop Brexit (which is all I can ask) and ‘perhaps’ is being used as a scapegoat to deflect attention away from other ‘Players’ who deserve more criticism (because they have more power)…the fact that she is a woman is ‘probably’ neither here nor there…she certainly ain’t bovine (IMO) but she may be a cow (I don’t know her personally). :wink:


#24551

She didn’t explain WHY they were “unfit” to be Prime Minister… and more to the point why she thinks that she is.


#24552

In that case I apologise unreservedly for any offense caused. I do hope you continue to contribute - when time allows - because your contributions are always insightful & worth reading (even when I don’t always agree with them :wink:)


#24553

Oilovlam,

Thanks. I don’t tolerate any form of sexism in my life. Hence some perceived ambiguity here about an issue I consider to be important, which touched a raw nerve. To be clear, no male chauvinists abided here. This confused matter is now over & history as far as I’m concerned.

Also an apology from me for any slight caused to anyone here.

FWIW, there are probably as many women politicians I admire as there are men, though admittedly not many of either gender from the current lot. I’d only make an exception with the late Tony Benn, who stood out for me as a political giant. But I’ve previously said that I’d certainly welcome the very capable Yvette Cooper as Labour leader, no less than Hilary Benn or Keir Starmer.

I’ve certainly previously criticised Clegg quite harshly & fairly often whenever I spoke about the late Lib Dem leader, Charles Kennedy, which was the last time I voted Lib Dems. I agree with JW that Swinson may not last as long as some of her more ardent supporters wish to think.

The way to stop Brexit is to form close political alliances. That takes compromise on all sides, including from both Labour & Lib Dems. - GL.


#24554

Quite… and NOT to engage in gutter politics trying to discredit individuals simply to get soundbites and airtime. Would be better if they tried to rise above that and discuss policies.