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Brexit Wars 3

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lse:lloy
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#28450

Eadwig,

I understand your fondness for Poland given your relationship and the amount of time you spend there. Me too, in relation to France. But we need to face the truth. In my discussion I am trying to be balanced in terms of what happened in both countries. Just as there were French fascist sympathisers, so too there were Polish fascist sympathisers. Some of these were willing and some less so. I understand that the ethnic mix of Poles but in the end German ethnic Poles were Polish civilians. I have read quote a bit about wartime Poland over the last couple of weeks and it is clear that both during the war and immediately after the war that there were outbreaks of ant-semitic mass murder. Nowhere have I read that these were ethnic Germans who committed these attrocities. I think that we have to face it that there has been an undercurrent in Polish society that is anti-semitic that have been ready to commit these crimes. I don’t buy the argument that those involved were coerced into those actions. Much more likely is that there were numbers of willing collaborators. “They made me do it” is the oldest excuse in the books.

There has been quite a lot of press comment about Poland being in a state of denial about the actions of SOME of its civilians during the war. This is not something that I have made up. What is clear is that the current right wing Polish government does not want any examination of this. It cannot be the case that their only objection is that people might believe that it was the Polish government created the extermination camps since the well understood historical fact is that there was no Polish government during the German occupation.

All the best,

Frog in a tree


#28451

Look at the sites that repeatedly show this though Froglet.

Just as there are repeat offender sites / Media for showing Alt Right / Far Right material… it is the same with these stories.
That’s not something I’ve made up.

Probably right… but who’s saying otherwise? Some were probably coerced… others weren’t/some were probably more easily coerced than others. So what?
I very much doubt if Poland as an occupied country reacted in any different way to any other invaded country… and same goes for if England had been invaded where we’d no doubt have seen Death Camps operated throughout the country by willing English.


#28452

I wouldn’t say I was particularly fond of Poland at all. If I was, it wouldn’t stop me pointing out that you are harping on one people as though they were somehow to blame for the holocaust rather than the Nazis. As is the press you are reading.

You’re dancing to someone else’s beat and you can’t even see it. At the same time you’re playing into the hands of a potentilly dangerous nationalist government, which I will always speak out against wherever it is.

I already gave examples of how Poland, like many other countries, was anti-semitic. No question of an “undercurrent”. In the 1930s there were still laws restricting the activities of jews in certain ways. Just like there had been in Britain up until a few decades earlier, although the British antisemitic laws were much more stringent. Why aren’t you talking about those?

If you want to know about ethnic Germans throwing off their Polish citizenship and joining in the ethnic cleansing I can start you off with “Hitler, A Biography”, Ian Kershaw. My next non-fiction book is Case White, I expect I shall learn more, because I’d never heard of this short-lived, but massive orgy of murder of Poles before either, out-pacing the SS death groups by magnitudes, and they had already trained and practiced in Czechoslovakia. In Poland the leash was taken off completely when Poles and Jews were classed as sub-human and slaughtered equally.

Was it really? There were outbreaks of mass-murder against many groups by many groups. The more I read the less I’m sure it can be generally labelled antisemitic, especially as no jews were involved in the vast majority of civillian-only incidents. Perhaps they just mistook each other?

I was shocked that groups of jews were killed post war in Poland and elsewhere in Europe when I first found out too. That’s because of what we now know. The chances are the homeless displaced persons committing such atrocities probably weren’t even aware of the scale of the holocaust beyond their own experience of it.

You are viewing history and war from a very comfortable stand-point and making judgements.

It reminds me of Corbyn accusing Britain of sabre rattling when it sent a few hundred troops to Poland, when Russia masses over 100,000 on the Belarussian border every year. Do you know what? That feels VERY different when you’re just the other side of that border and the same army has just annexed half of another neighbouring country and the refugees can be seen on every street corner in town.

So, yes, I suppose my visits to Poland do give me a different perspective. Perhaps you should try it? Stick a pin in the map of Europe, look up antisemitism wherever it lands and then travel there. You wont be short of stories.


#28453

with the Brexit farce you would think Gov would be working to get Trade Deals and helping industry compete with US INDIAN Chinese co,s and trying to save jobs.
Surely not just spending money??

Our Gov like Playschool…


#28454

Good bedtime stories for Huw and JAR.

Frog


#28455

…you are harping on one people as though they were somehow as though they were somehow to blame for the holocaust rather than the Nazis.

Eadwig, where have I ever suggested that the Polish people were to blame for the holocaust? You are over-arguing your case to the point of being ridiculous.

As for:

The chances are the homeless displaced persons committing such atrocities probably weren’t even aware of the scale of the holocaust beyond their own experience of it.

…from what I have read these smaller scale attrocities generally took place in villages with the jews being attacked by their neighbours. Anti-semitism and pure criminality and theft seem to have been motivating factors.

The notion that Polish people weren’t aware of what was going on in the numerous nazi extermination camps simply doesn’t stand up. There were many Poles working in those camps and can you imagine that the stench of burning and decaying bodies could somehow be contained?

You say that the sources I have read have been somehow anti-Polish. I don’t think so. Here is one of them which is a balanced article:

From this article:

…many Poles helped their Jewish neighbors. Polish citizens make up the largest group of Yad Vashem’s Righteous Among Nations, a term used to describe non-Jews who risked death to help Jews during the Holocaust. However, other Poles murdered Jews. They participated in pogroms in places likeJedwabne, where Polish locals helped the Nazis round up and burn alive hundreds of Jews in 1941. Individual Polestortured or mistreated Jews during the war at death camps and as civilians, and others denounced their Jewish neighbors. Pogroms even continued after the war was over, as in Kielce, where 42 Jewish survivors of the war were beaten, shot and stoned by Poles. They were among thousands of Jews who found persecution instead of open arms when they returned home to Poland.

Poland was reduced to a terrible state by the war and only perhaps certain parts of Russia suffered worse. What we see is what is meant when we talk of the “dogs of war” being let loose. Social order breaks down and chaos reigns.

The statement that Poland is in denial about what happened in the war stems from the current government’s efforts to try to outlaw and suggestion of Polish complicity in the holocaust and since there was no Polish government this has been taken to include any examination of the complicity of some of the Polish citizens in what went on.

I hope I have been clear enough for you.

Frog in a tree


#28456

Let’s just take the first paragraph in your “balanced” article:

“… but soon, implying that those crimes were committed by the Polish state will itself be a crime.”

**WRONG… it is not a criminal offence. As I’ve pointed out to you before but you persist in posting out of date articles… probably deliberately.

"A controversial new law in Poland makes it illegal to accuse the nation of being complicit with Nazi crimes like the Holocaust. "

**WRONG… It does not deny the right of people who survived the Holocaust to speak about their personal tragedies or limit any kind of freedom of research or artistic freedom.

"
It also outlaws the phrase “Polish death camps.” Both are punishable by prison sentences of up to three years.
"

**WRONG… The law says… if you actually bother to read it rather than read pro-Israeli lobby junk sites and all the copies of them… that:
"anyone who “publicly and against the facts” accuses the Polish state or nation of being “responsible or complicit in” Nazi crimes will be guilty of a civil offence. "
(Note the “against the facts” part too.)

In fact … almost every paragraph in the story you posted has something wrong with it too.

Biassed, factually wrong, out of date and ignorant.


#28457

By the way, JW, where are we with your odds on a second referendum? Could it be that you were “WRONG”?

Frog


#28458

I don’t mind admitting I got that wrong. I’m afraid that the Lib Dems and SNP screwed that up and handed the Leavers & the Tories an easy win.


#28459

I suggest you look up the term displaced persons and do some reading about them.

How can someone who was a slave in a camp in Germany be aware of what was going on outside his or her immediate situation? They have then spent months or years in a state of half starvation attempting to get back home and find family members amidst the rubble of Europe with any news reaching them at all coming via a Stalinist regime. Estimates vary from 500,000 to 2 million or more dying on the road during this period. And you think they should have a grip on the bigger picture? Many people in the west, from their armchairs, didn’t believe the bigger picture for years.

They aren’t in denial. They are a right-wing, nationalistic government using the standard playbook. Rule number 1. Choose a grievance, I.e. idiots saying Poles were complicit with the holocaust, then harp on about it endlessly creating an external enemy and scapegoat and a cause to rally to. It is their ‘stab in the back’ myth, or the Mexican rapist, criminal immigrants, and you’ve swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

F***ing wake up!

Your reading of them is anti-Polish, or you would have spoken in equal terms about at least a couple of dozen other nationalisties, which you haven’t.

You just keep coming back to Polish inmates who chose to become guards to put off their own execution and get a little more to eat. How many did the same of other nationalities? There may have been a lot of Poles doing it, but then there were more of them dying in those camps than any other nationality, which seems to be a point you have missed enirely.

Poland and later the Russian invasion were different. The SS targeted clergy, teachers and nobility in the first 3 weeks, executing over 60,000. Right from the start that set the standard. Only the bravest German Army officers dared protest against the excesses of cruelty that they witnessed and which spread among their own men to the detriment of army discipline. Only to find that the orders went all the way up to Hitler himself.

Amongst all this, where is the evidence that Poles were complicit in any kind of meaningful way?


#28460

JW

The central point I was mKing was"

…many Poles helped their Jewish neighbors. Polish citizens make up the largest group of Yad Vashem’s Righteous Among Nations, a term used to describe non-Jews who risked death to help Jews during the Holocaust. However, other Poles murdered Jews. They participated in pogroms in places likeJedwabne, where Polish locals helped the Nazis round up and burn alive hundreds of Jews in 1941. Individual Polestortured or mistreated Jews during the war at death camps and as civilians, and others denounced their Jewish neighbors. Pogroms even continued after the war was over, as in Kielce, where 42 Jewish survivors of the war were beaten, shot and stoned by Poles. They were among thousands of Jews who found persecution instead of open arms when they returned home to Poland.

What was inaccurate about that?

Frog in a tree


#28461

When you post articles that are inaccurate/out of date/wrong and then just point to a section as the part that you were interested in… it doesn’t bode well.

So once again… all you are doing is pointing out incidents that happened around the 40s which also happened in several other countries.
That is how human behaves no matter where they were born and when put under pressure by the impacts of war.

You do seem to glory in war and spend a lot of time seeking out war graves… do you think you are a bit obsessed by that? Couldn’t you do something that actually helps/benefit people/animals today instead of whining on about Poland and atrocities from 80 years ago?


#28462

Sort of happened in the Channel Isles:

IMHO,

SBK


#28463

Pete,

There is zero chance of the Primary School teacher Liar Johnson and his muppet gang getting a trade deal with the USA this year, nor one with the EU.

Trump is really going to put his foot on the UK’s neck. Liar Johnson will have to get down on his fat belly and lick orangehead’s boots if he wants any crumbs at all. First he’ll have to backtrack on the Huawei deal. This will be plainly seen by the world as a gross humiliation of Britain.

So much for “Taking back control”.

IMHO,

SBK


#28464

Pete,

This will make you laugh…

British (UK-EU) passports have, until recently, been manufactured at a factory in Gateshead, England.

British (UK) blue passports will be manufactured in Poland. By a Franco-Belgian firm.

A sign of what is happening out in the real world. One way traffic for business.

IMHO,

SBK


#28465

Maybe JAR and Jarse can argue with this guy and tell him how wonderful Brexit is for business?

IMHO,

SBK


#28466

yes asked these muppets over and over
WHAT WILL USA CHINA INDIA
BUY
to make up for lost EU exports
NO ANSWER

IMG_20200215_182543


#28467

JW hi

Another (welcome) outcome of the Tories win.
Going … going …


JAR


#28468

This is actually Britain admitting it is now a smaller, poorer country and can no longer project soft power around the world as a result of Brexit.

Just as was predicted, but you lot shouted “Project Fear!”

Its all coming home to roost now, bit by bit. No surprises that @john.a.reeves cant even recognise it


#28469

I very nearly brought up Alderney as an example of how many slave labourers lost their lives working on the Atlantic Wall. The number of dead approached 700 and Alderney is an island about 3 miles by one and a half mile.

There is a very beautiful, simple memorial in the middle of the island to all the Russian prisoners who lost their lives with many of them named specifically, if I remember correctly.