LLOYDS is going to FLY



Hi @Armageddon, I cant agree with your assertion that we are all traders, not in the commonly accepted meaning of those terms anyway. You have redefined them somewhat to support your argument I think !.

Investopedia says the following about traders and investors:

A trader is an individual who engages in the buying and selling of financial assets in any financial market, either for himself or on behalf of another person or institution. The main difference between a trader and an investor is the duration for which the person holds the asset. Investors tend to have a longer-term time horizon, while traders tend to hold assets for shorter periods of time to capitalize on short-term trends.

An investor is any person or other entity (such as a firm or mutual fund) who commits capital with the expectation of receiving financial returns. Investors utilize investments in order to grow their money and/or provide an income during retirement, such as with an annuity. An investor puts capital to use for long-term gain, while a trader seeks to generate short-term profits by buying and selling securities over and over again.

By those definitions I am most certainly an investor and not a trader.




Don’t let anyone else define things for you pref. Define your own world

So if you wish to be defined as an investor, so be it.

For me, I’ve held companies years at times. But never as an investment in the company. I dont know much about any company really. So couldn’t call it an investment when I dont even know what they do half the time. It was a long term trade. Price speculation.


Its not your money unless you were actually in on the IPO(s).
Everything after that is traders (or investors) speculating on returns, not one penny of which goes to the company.

Just thought I’d make that point. It is one that gets overlooked all too often it seems to me.


Very true. After the IPO, the only relevance of SP to the board, are bonuses


Naturally - I want the companies I get dividends from to be around for 20 or more years and thus keep my capital intact and in pace with inflation at least.

I should have been clearer.

I find it difficult to get an income from companies that do not pay dividends but show capital growth - I struggle both with the concept and with the practicalities.

Conceptually - if I sell shares to realise part of the growth I am eventually left with no shares.

Practically - selling small quantities makes the trading cost horrendous (and I have to take decisions and carry out the trade.)

I do wish II would reintroduce dividend pay away.


Are investors at the IPO stage not speculators too? Speculation does not differentiate initial investors, trading investors or longer term investors.

When I buy their IPO shares I become them, my cash becomes theirs as far as the company is concerned. Hopefully, they get a little or a lot extra from me for taking the initial risk. Thus part of my money indirectly funds the plants etc, and part rewards the IPO investors. (Admittedly, this simplifies the overall algorithm too much as it ignores the impact of market pricing and market price movement and probably a whole host of other variables. Nevertheless, it emphasises ownership - with my shares I own a chunk of the business.)

FWIW: part of my holding in AXS was a rights issue so my money did go directly into plants etc.


Hi @pelim, Yes I quite understand your problem, investments that don’t pay a dividend are a problem for anyone investing for income for all of the reasons that you have outlined. That’s why people investing for income naturally gravitate towards dividend paying investments where you don’t need to sell to extract the income (however small).

Not sure about your 20 year requirement though, are you really going to hold the same investment for 20 years ?. I buy and hold but I’m pretty sure that there will be very few that I’d expect to be around for that long. And if they cut their dividend or share price dropped significantly (presenting a threat to the capital) then personally I would sell and invest elsewhere.

Investment Trusts paying regular dividends are a popular choice for income seekers as I am sure that you are aware. But are you aware of the AIC (Association of Investment Companies) ?. They specialise in Investment Trusts and provide a lot of useful tools for finding and comparing them.

A recent addition to the AICs toolset is an Income Finder tool that allows people with an IT based portfolio to plan out their dividend payments so that they are evenly spread over the year. There is a whole thread over on the Lemon Fool about this tool, see link below:-

Hope you find this useful.




Interesting Sunday Morning read this … thanks


Thank you.

Yes. I am quite happy the RDSB, ULVR, HSBA and a few others will be here for a while yet. They have seen me through the first 12 years of retirement. I monitor them from time to time. Of course, since this period took me through the 2008 crash it has not always been plain sailing. I retain a small interest in a few more speculative developing companies like AXS and SXX but keep my involvement to small amounts of cash. Hard to say whether these will be around in 20 years. My guess is that they will both be provided they are not taken over.

I shall look at AICs and Lemon Fool and learn.



Hi @pelim, Well the problem with all if the investments that you have listed is they are all what I refer to as “single stocks” and as such are often have a very volatile share price and in some cases might deliver an unpleasant drop in your income were the dividend to be cut. Investment trusts (ITs) try to avoid these problems by investing in a range of stocks, bonds, debt or other things (depends on the individual IT) hence removing the risk of non performance due to a problem with an individual share (or other investment) and a lower chance of a dividend cut.

ITs are actively managed and normally have some “theme” which in some way determines the constituents. As a result ITs incur ongoing charges and other costs which are built into the price, but should not be ignored when selecting an IT - anything more than a 1.5% OCF is expensive.

ITs also usually have a Net Asset Value (that being the price per share of all of the trusts assets). Trusts where the price is higher than the NAV are said to be trading at a premium, those where the price is below the NAV are said to be trading at a discount. Ideally buying a trust that is trading at a discount is to be preferred. Certainly buying a trust that trades at a large premium is normally reckoned not to be a good idea. That said investors are still buying LTI which is trading at a 100% premium ATM (!) so people will do it if they think that they will get a sufficient return. Has to be a high risk thing to do though…



PS And yes as Armageddon says Unit Trusts (UTs) and Open Ended Funds (OEICs) are something else again. Dont confuse them with Investment Trusts as they are quite different. ETFs are quite similar to Investment Trusts but usually track an Index and have lower charges - but really deserve a longer description than I have time for right ATM.


Best words I’ve seen here for a long time. I think the risk when trading at a discount, is a lot lower than single stocks , by at least 70% reduced. (Not that you cant lose)

Don’t go to unit trusts as some do, when told IT


LLOY flying again, downwards, was nudgin near 1 % down a few minutes ago.

Having said that I have just within the last 30 minutes, opened 3 long trades.
Only need a little recovery for those to work.
See what happens




Think it’s going lower
back to 50
even under 50

LLOY is better than other banks but growing business from here will be tough for LLOY - specially since they have already employed cost cutting measures.

Where will LLOY find new clients ?
How willl existing customers start spend or borrow more ?

Mean while Monzo N26 etc etc are growing too fast.

Good luck to holders


I think that the fear of a hard Brexit is factored in for now. It would certainly fall harder if a hard Brexit were to happen but we are some way off at present.

Anyone’s guess though!




So that was a good punt on LLOY today Soi? Well called!




Brexit is over its done all the harm it could - more years will get wasted by Brexit. Brexit will happen it’s American agenda to hurt EU

I dread American ambitions with Sino Persian conflict. We are lucky Chinese aren’t temperamental like Russia.

Pretty confident Trump will get re-elected and pretty confident the current banking system won’t have much to reap.


I think we will have to wait a bit to assess The Groper’s chances of re-election. According to the Washington Post, he just sacked his own polling organisations for predicting that Biden would win by a good margin.




Well that would be great so I hope you’re right



Thanks, yes all 3 longs were limit closed at profit ( small %, I try not to be greedy )

Struggled elsewhere though.
A lot of volatility in markets.




Hi Soi, I admire your investing skill. I am sure you make a lot more money than me. I am content to buy and hold and only rarely sell. Its pretty easy to sit back and watch the divis roll in and reinvest without too much effort. I just took a look and YTD my portfolio is up 9%. That’s fine for me, though probably not for you. I am fortunate that my income (excluding dividends) is more than enough to keep me in wine and roses.

Wishing you continued success.

Frog in a tree