LLOYDS is going to FLY



LLOY flying again.

Down 1.48 %.

55 and lower beckons



I was waiting for you to pop up Soul Man :slight_smile:


@PrefInvestor1 I think you mentioned VWRL yesterday. Indeed, that appears to be the best performing Global ETF (of those providing Income) but not far behind is GBDV with a much better yield… dunno if you’ve looked at that one before.


Hi Again @J_Westlock, Yes I have both VWRL and GBDV on my watchlists and they are both things that I have earmarked as things that I might invest in at some point.

Almost bought into GBDV a while back when it was around about £26 but has since moved up in price from there - nice diversified list of holdings with a lot of US and Canadian stuff in there. Yield a bit lower than i would like at about 3.5% as I recall (I see you have it at 4.56% didn’t think it was that high ?). Anyway yes I like it but am not invested there - yet.

VWRL really only got on my radar when I was looking at the FTSE 100 trackers the other day. Prior to that I always felt that it’s yield was too low for me, but it’s total return performance has been quite outstanding. I am now significantly more interested.

Not an ETF but a closed end fund that I quite like and have held before which is CGI (Canadian General Investments) mainly Canadian holdings but pays a 3.x% dividend some of which are capital gains dividends and so not subject to WHT. Also it’s a rarity in that it can be held in an ISA. Found this as part of my search for US investments that could be held in an ISA and paid a decent dividend. Not holding it ATM, but again it’s on my “prepared to invest in” list.




Hi Again @J_Westlock, Confess I’m a bit surprised to see PNL in the same company as VWRL and GBDV on your list ?. As I’m sure you are aware it’s a highly defensive trust which holds treasuries, gold, US Tips and stuff like that. Designed I think to appeal to investors who want an investment that will survive Armageddon and pretty much came through even the 2008 financial crisis with only limited damage. Ferociously expensive at ~ £420 a share too.

Capital Gearing Trust (CGT) is another similar super defensive IT that I have also looked at in the past.



PS Neither of these are in my “prepared to invest In” list…


@PrefInvestor1 I assume you mean the SIPP is then liable to 40% IHT at 75, not that withdrawals from it are taxed at that rate?

I didn’t know about the upper age limit. I see what you mean about 75. You do get more personal tax allowance at that age though , I seem to remember from my dad’s stuff.

I read a piece in the Telegraph about trusts maybe 2-3 years ago and you really do have to be into protecting millions before they become worthwhile so far as I understood it. The setup they looked at was designed to do the job for multiple generations though, so perhaps there are cheaper ways to setup a trust.


Tories suddenly look like none of them have ever fought an election before and UK-centric stocks get hit. Surprised GBP wasn’t down quite a bit.

Not sure at this stage what the fx markets are thinking. Probably just that the election outcome, including no majority for ANY Brexit resolution, is a lot more uncertain than it seemed a week or so ago when I think most people thought a working majority for Johnson’s plan was the most likely outcome.


Hi Again @Eadwig, Pretty good summary of IHT rules as they apply to a SIPP here:-




Thanks for that - as soon as |I looked at it I remembered one of the things I meant to do on this visit to the Uk was fill out the form which says who is supposed to inherit my SIPP, which I never completed when I opened it.

Had completely slipped my mind. On my todo list for tomorrow (flying out again Saturday).


Yep… I only put PNL there as I remembered it invested in several countries just to ensure these ETFs were well outperforming it… and they were.
Well, PNL dropped by an average of about 20% in 2008 from where it was (and for a time it was worse than that) for about a year before it started recovering properly… but at least it did recover.
I aim to make money in the good times to cover when there are bad. Limping along with a yield less than inflation and volatile capital gains isn’t for me and PNL appears as volatile as many other stocks… 2015 seemed a particularly appalling year for it… but again it recovered.
You’d have done better investing in Aberdeen Asia Fund… that too dropped about 20% but in less than a year it was bouncing back and exceeding where it was before massively.

CGI sounds interesting. so are “capital gains dividends” like what the HMRC call ‘EXCESS REPORTABLE INCOME’ that you get with some foreign funds (not that it would matter being in an ISA or SIPP).
We’d have to claim part of the WHT back I assume if we held that one?

If you’re interested, I’ll post the tables I have on s/sheet for UK, US, Asia, Global and Emerging Markets. I used the HL site… like you suggested… just to order each etf/fund in Total Returns order… it was getting too difficult to keep all this in my head.


Hi @J_Westlock, Yes I’d be interested in seeing your ETF comparisons, if it’s not too much trouble.

You can find out more about CGI and their dividends on their website here:-

I think it’s a mechanism that they use to stop WHT being levied on those dividends. But read their explanation yourself. Only some of their dividends are of this form so if you held it in a SIPP then you’d need to do whatever you do to recover WHT on those dividends to which it is applied.

Major holdings as at Nov 5th can be found here :-




Ordered by Total Return (looked at over 1, 3 and 5 years), here’s a selection of etfs and funds worth looking at (IMHO). esp. those towards the top.
(*) means of particular interest, usually because of better yield and/or low cost.

If you’re aware of any etf’s / funds that may have better Total Returns or yields in these areas please let me know and I will add to see where they fit in.






Emerging Markets


Hi Again @J_Westlock, Yes a great piece of work. I have taken a soft copy hope thats OK.

I also put a lot of them into a watchlist on the sharesmagazine site that I use to maintain my portfolio. This updates in real-time (see the telltale blue and red marks on the screenshot below):-

From this I note on todays performance that:-

  1. IDVY is outperforming ZWEU again
  2. ZILK is outperforming all of the other FTSE ETFs but IUKD is actually doing the best !

I find this a great (free) site for monitoring stocks and as I say I have my whole portfolio in a different watchlist and I can copy and paste it into my investment spreadsheet delivering close to real time updates to my portfolio.

On a slightly separate topic, but still related to ETFs. I am slightly concerned about the small size of some of the BMO ETFs (all those starting with Z…). ZILK for example has only about £20 odd million invested there and some of the others arent hugely bigger. I know that they are operated as a big pool but having one discontinued would be tedious. All the Vanguard and iShares ones have huge deposits. Any thoughts on this issue ?.




I was just reading justetf on this and they say:
“Fund size (assets under management) of around £100 million enables an ETF to be managed cost-efficiently.“

You reckon that’s an AUM figure to use to raise a red flag on any etf lower?


Well I don’t really know TBH. I read some stuff on the Lemon Fool about the safety of ETFs, collected thoughts seem to be that there are two issues to concern yourself with:-

  1. The provider going bust, but unlikely with the size if all these outfits but might be an issue with some really small player I guess. Suggested approach was to spread out your investments across the big guys - same approach as with brokers. Eggs and baskets and all that.

  2. Low AUM risk. Saw one post on the TLF where the poster said that they had been invested in an ETF that the provider had closed down - didn’t say why it was closed. They didnt lose any money by the sound of it but were out of the market while the fund was liquidated and money returned to investors. Your input from justetf is the only definitive input I’ve heard, but even that I’m not really sure about. The BMO ETFs for example are just one big pool of money really with common services for trading etc. The costs for any one ETF must be pretty low and they are hardly likely to want to be a position where they didn’t have a FTSE 100 offering for example. If you use £100m as a warning level then many of the BMO ETFs will be red flagged.

Anyway I have today sold my ZILK (which beat VUKE both yesterday and this morning) and bought VUKE with the proceeds. Better total return, helps diversify my ETF providers and eliminates an ETF with a particularly low AUM. Slight reduction in yield though.

ATB and thanks again for your work on this.



Hi Again @J_Westlock,

ZILK vs VUKE last 2 days (did my swap at 09:30)

ZILK vs VUKE (5 years Total Return)

No contest !.




Absolutely… seems a good move re: VUKE. Lower cost too… which over time adds up.

I’m going to add AUM to my s/sheet as a column… will see what the spread is of the different ETFs/funds. On a quick look, you are right that many of the BMO ETFs are sub £100M.

As you say, the real way to combat this this just to spread your risk across different Fund Managers. I will certainly take note of thee AUM though if other factors are similar… as the more likely event is for a Fund Manager to discontinue a fund that isn’t getting enough interest.


Another good day for traders with over 1% spread.

Not sure that we will see 55p again, what 1s the rational?


Is it true Lloyds is owned by the the Harris LP outfit in Chicago USA?
Wonderful if true
See ya.


Hi Again @Eadwig, So I got an answer back from HL today about what you were allowed to contribute to a SIPP and in particular whether it was possible to deposit a large lump sum even if it didn’t receive any tax uplift.

Basically their answer was in two parts:-

  1. If you are no longer working then you can contribute a maximum of £2,880 a year up until the age of 75, on which you will receive £720 pa payment from HMRC. At age 75 that scenario completely finishes.

  2. In theory you CAN make additional contributions to your SIPP, but if you do it is likely the HMRC will ask for your reasons for doing so. They indicated that a reason of “to avoid IHT” was not likely to be well received. I’m guessing saying that you wanted to avoid paying tax on your investments wouldn’t go down that well either !.

Non starter I think…