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LLOYDS is going to FLY

lse:lloy

#3819

Hi SBK,

That is a very fair comment. When I was taking my grandson to Ypres five years ago now (he was 8 years of age) , his father who was struggling with the TV remote at the time said to me without even bothering to look up. “Why take him to Belgium, he will not enjoy it. Take him to Southend and let him go on as many rides as he wants, he will enjoy that far more.”

You are correct when you say “If you stopped anyone on the street today under 50 they would have virtually no accurate knowledge of either of those two world wars.”

Have you visited Vimy Ridge, The Aisne or Ypres either by yourself or with members of your family? I think that you would find it educational and perhaps if your relatives are buried near where the fell it would give you the opportunity of visiting their graves. The CWGC website could help you locate the cemeteries and burial plots if you were to take an interest.

Much of the knolwledge is down to education, the parents imitially and then whatever gets taught at school. I get the impression these days that schools seldom want to have anything to do with teaching about either war or if they do it is very selective, although I have to say that each of my grandchildren has been asked to write essays on any of their relatives who may have been involved in either war, the questions being posed around Armistice Day.

I maybe wrong but many times I notice that my grandchildren can seldom be dragged away from their mobiles and You tube or whatever or their ipad computer games for any length of time. I wonder whether these forms of entertainment ever have anything on them that might give rise to any form of interest in learning about either war.

Certainly there are "war " computer games but they seem to be mostly of the alien variety as far as I can tell. It also seems that the latest gossip from Love Island or whatever rubbish TV programme is of more interest to my granddaughter!

My grandson thoroughly enjoyed himself in my company going around Ypres even pointing out memorials that I may not have noticed whilst concentrating on the road and suggesting that we stop. Hopefully he will enjoy himself and find it interesting to visit the Somme and Vimy Ridge. I am looking forward to seeing the look on his face when he sees the size of the crater when we visit Lochnagar.

A couple of months after his vist to Ypres he was awarded a prize at his primary school for the best essay.

Having been brought up around the end of WW2 during my school years I was not at all interested in WW1 far too long ago! I could not get enough of WW2, books. films, whatever. As soon as a new WW2 film came out I was straight around to the local cinema to watch it.

It was only when I moved to France in 2004 and having to drive down the A1 from Arras towards Paris that my interest started and although I moved back to the U.K. at the end of 2010 I have been touring the WW1 battlefields in France and Belgium every year since.

Like so many others age is no longer on my side and I fear that either this year or next will probably be my final visit to them.

Kind regards

TJ


#3820

SBK,

The logic isn’t difficult. We live in a world of easy sweeping judgements. For example, there are still many deluded haters who blame Jewish people as being predominantly responsible for the world’s financial problems. No proof of that whatsoever of course, but no proof needed. It’s just assumed as fact & the lie is spread accordingly.

Though this context is very different, there are also similarities. IMO, we can say that a good percentage of German civilians certainly knew or suspected what the Nazis were doing to Jewish & other civilians. That the more ardent Nazi civilians would’ve supported it. But we have no absolute proof that the majority knew due to the omnipresence of Nazi propaganda & how that worked. It was contradictory as despite previous references to exterminations in some Nazi speeches, there were also many Nazi propaganda claims seeking to sanitise their crimes, such as Jewish citizens being resettled in other nations or being sent to “work camps”. That too is fact.

I’m sure most people appreciate that it was a very different time to what all of us have been fortunate enough to know over recent decades. - GL.


#3821

TJ,

No, that is on my to do list. Neither of the bodies of the above two family casualties were ever found. One is commemorated at Tyne Cot the other on the Memorial at Soissons.

Hitherto my time in France has always been in the hedonistic South, the West and Paris where I once lived for a time. I have plans to buy a house in France and spend as much time as Brexit will allow there when we eventually find out what the hell is going on. Once I have a base there I have ambitions to travel extensively around Europe as I did when younger, to where I have and have not been. I have never been to Berlin, for example. I’d like to spend a chunk of time in Germany again and do some detailed research to find out if there were any of the wartime German generation who did not know everything about the death camps.

IMHO,

SBK


#3822

Well, I agree with that and that is why nationalistic knackers and racism need to be challenged at every turn.

IMHO,

SBK


#3823

Hi SBK,

Unlike JD I also think that many Germans and others in WW2 knew of or heard stories about these atrocious places and many would have noticed Jewish neighbours who disappeared.

There are always those who will not listen or do not want to know whatever the subject is whatever the truth might be. You can see this in society today in two sides of whatever the argument is. Once these people decide on what is right or wrong or what is happening they insist that their view is correct and will ot, in any circumstance concede ground to an opposing view.

Of course today there can be "no incontrovertible proof " of the percentage of the German population who were aware of what was going on. The passage of time has seen to that.

Certainly all news in WW2 was heavily censored and there were many ears listening out for “indiscrete” wagging tongues but like today I would suggest that news gets out even when the authorities don’t want it to. Whatever certain damaging news might be today we label it “conspiracy theories” in order to cast as much doubt as possible on its authenticity.

Of course today there are people who wish to deny the existence of the holocaust and concentration camps but I would think that many of these are as you suggested earlier “under 50”

Kind regards

TJ


#3824

Hi @trader_jack

To clarify, I’m casting doubt, with documentary evidence provided, on the assured claims that the “majority” definitely knew about the actual “exterminations”. That’s different from what you seem to think I’m saying. - GL.


#3825

Hi SBK,

Well good luck with that, I thoroughly enjoyed my time in France living just outside Cahors on the River Lot.

Wonderful countryside and very nice people. Great food also.

It may have changed a little in the 9 years since I left but ths supermarkets sledom carry anything that is not “local.” I could buy as much local wine as I wanted but the choice of Bordeaux or Burgundy wines was always extremely limited. I did, on the odd occasion, stumble across Heinz baked beans though. My local restaurant liked to serve up steak tartare on a weekly basis but I recall I had to introduce them to Worcester Sauce to go with it. They had never heard of it.

Godd luck

TJ

If you choose the countryside to urban living you might fo well remember to turn your watch and clocks back 50 years!


#3826

TJ,

From my point of view the UK has just gone back 50 years.

IMHO,

SBK


#3827

Hi JD,

If I have misunderstood you I do apologise although my own thinking is that many more Germans and others knew what was going on but for obvious reasons had no desire to be confronted either with the evidence or the truth.

Kind regards
TJ


#3828

In that case the U.K. has just caught up with French time!

Kind regards

TJ


#3829

Yes, makes sense at those multiples and especially for yourself in the position you’ve said you’re in; you’ve done well and must feel good working out where to invest those amounts.
I have a DB pension which I’m just leaving as it has a woefully small amount in it to do much with. I think the advice that the FCA insist advisers use needs updating.
You could also got plenty of leeway on the face of it to consider helping out some causes that you might support… plenty of such places around.


#3830

Hi @trader_jack,

Thanks & no problem. Presumably the historical research I’ve linked would have been carried out scrupulously, so with assured anonymity. So few motives to lie. Or else what would be the point?

I’ve even linked the World Jewish Congress & a famous Auschwitz survivor, Primo Levi, on another thread that validates what I say.

That the popular view here goes against mine doesn’t make it correct, even though as Fiat acknowledges, there’s mixed evidence from various sources that casts doubts on these claims.

Little wonder many English people seem to hate the Germans to this day & that the tabloids have no problem whipping up anti-German hatred among the English. Old resentments die hard. FWIW, I understand where that stems from. People believe what they want to, even without proof. - Regards.


#3832

“Two World Wars and One World Cup” seems a fair summing up to many these days though.

For any discussion / argument there are always two sides and on many occasions neither side is correct.

The whole problem around the subject today is that there are fewer and fewer survivors or people with direct / indirect knowledge so it is important that the subject is carried on through teaching as much as is practical. The camps themselves are one way as long as they are maintained they will always be a prime teacher of that horrendous period in history.

Where you mention that “many English people seem to hate Germans to this day” I have two grandsons who were moved to Northern Ireland three years ago. Their protestant grandmother will have nothing to do with anybody of the catholic persuasion and even stopped my son-in-law going out with a catholic girl he met at university!

I take time to try and guide all my grandchildren along the path that I have always followed (I do not know where this first came from or where I picked it up): Never hate a whole nation e.g. Germans or a complete religion e.g. catholics or muslims or colour even.

There are good and bad in all parts of society, if you must dislike / hate anybody do it on an individual basis, an individual person for whatever reason that they may have got up your nose. It is much easier to handle and live with that way.

Kind regards

TJ


#3834

Hi @trader_jack,

Thanks again. Some very good points & I don’t disagree with them. Not least, I strongly agree that we should never forget such horrors. So it’s absolutely important that future generations continue learning about what happened. IMO, there’s no question about that.

I also relate very strongly to the example of the “Protestant grandmother”, be it from a very different context.

My late Father hated Germans passionately & irrationally, without much exception, due to his own war-time experiences in Eastern Europe. At various times, whilst in the throes of uncontrollable drunken rages, he’d blame the whole German nation for the loss of his entire family, bar one brother. For him there was little meaningful difference between bonafide Nazis & German civilians. That was so even in the late 1970s & after. It was extreme.

As a child one couldn’t contradict him about these matters without also feeling the consequences of his rage. I found that out early on when innocently cheering West German goals (this before unification) simply because they displayed excellent footballing skill. That taught me a vital lesson in how not to be.

I mentioned football because I think to this day, within a sporting context, there’s little to match the sheer hatred exhibited by many elements of so-called English football fans than when they play Germany. The venom, including still many references to the war, is readily invoked & goes beyond any reasonable grounds. The roots of such hatred seem to exist in some subconscious part of the collective psyche, at least partly stemming from what people assume about WW2 especially.

IMO, that’ll probably continue until we start seeing the majority of WW2 German civilians as also victims of the brutalities of Nazism, be it on a far lesser scale than others, rather than the majority as being in some way complicit with Nazi ideology via having an assumed definite knowledge of their worst crimes.

As you well know, some hatreds last for centuries among significant parts of various populations, going from generation to generation. But trying to see both sides of past conflicts may, over time, at least help to diminish, if not break such cycles of hatred.

Kindly note, I’m not saying that you hold such views. But sadly all too many still appear to. - Regards.


#3835

Hello Jack,

I can relate to the story you tell about your father. Neither of us lived through the war like he did. My late mother for many years had a deep seated hatred of Germans because of what her father went through in a forced labour camp. Fortunately he survived because my grandmother sprung him using false papers. Mum remembered German soldiers coming to their apartment looking for him and being instructed by them to play the piano for their entertainment. My grandmother also had deep-seated anger about the British army running away at Dunkirk and abandoning France to its fate, as she saw it. Such are family memories and they certainly leave their marks on us. My mum eventually relented about the Germans and even though she had prevented me going on school trips to Germany she did in her later years do a bit of tourism in Germany.

As for your assertion that we have been saying that " the majority as being in some way complicit with Nazi ideology via having an assumed definite knowledge of their worst crimes.", that is not what has been said at all. Many would have been complicit as they supported their country right or wrong, but many would have been privately appalled as their jewish neighbours were taken away and would have no power to alter events even though a few did try and fail. Whether complicit or appalled this would not have been a factor in whether they knew what was going on or not. Having knowledge is not the same as being guilty.

Frog in a tree


#3836

Yes @J_Westlock, Pretty we’ll all the things I sold are up a bit today. I guess the GBP dropping about 1.5% might have helped. But I have watchlists which list the top 10 holdings in each of AAIF, HFEL, IAPD & SEDY and they show that most of the holdings are in fact down.

I guess the Investment Trusts dont actually have to reflect the underlying stock price moves in their price, only in the NAV. The price is simply what investors will pay for it. I plan to look at the next NAV when they publish it.

The same isnt true of the ETFs though, don’t understand why they have done so well today.

Anyway no point complaining - just have to suck it up and carry on…

ATB

Pref


#3837

Hi JD,

Thank you for that. I did not for one minute think that your comments may infer that I hold such views as you mention.

War in my family was never spoken about so I actually have no idea whether any of my relatives were involved in WW2 being the more recent of the two. My father and two uncles were in reserved occupations, my father and one uncle being dispensing chemists and my other uncle was chief electrician in a coal mine. Other relatives I simply have no idea about except for one uncle who could not adjust to life after the war and took his own life in 1950. I was never told anything about him as to what he did before and after the war and as far as I can recall there was no photographs of him

Children of my generation were not expected to ask questions, werwere to be seen but not heard.

When I was in my teenage years and leaving school, friends and work colleagues if I learned that there they had no father, it was not considered done to enquire about them.

I can have no idea of what it must have been like to have had a father who, having been in the war, and whose experiences led him to get into drunken rages I have to be thankful never happened to me. I have heard similar stories over the years though.

Since my early years I have been an avid football fan and followed my club for the best part of 70 years. Ignoring the physical violence that have occurred outside grounds there have been times when I have wondered whether football supporting had become so partsan that it had become so tribal that it had taken over from war.

I recall one evening when I went to watch England play at Wembley in the early 1980’s I think the visitors were Luxembourg. A country so small that if the traffic lights were green you could drive straight through without realising it. A team that was so light that I felt my old school team could have given them a good game. I want to say that I thought the whole population of Luxembourg could be comfortably sat in the stadium with room to spare. Anyway I decided that I would cheer for Luxembourg and did so. A silly idea, the ignoramus sitting next to me( we were sat in seats just below the royal box - not cheap seats) turned around and hit me for cheering for Luxembourg!

I think that most of us have predjucies but how we develop them I can only guess at. Yes, history teaches us that many of our predjucies go back centuries, Jewish people have been despised in some quarters for centuries even when most were kind and caring, those in the medical profession for example.

Let us hope that all peoples will for once learn from history and such tragic events will never be allowed to happen again. As Churchill said “Jaw jaw is much better than War War.”

Kind regards

TJ


#3838

Hi Fiat,

Thanks. I fully appreciate your first paragraph & I naturally closely share in knowing something of the direct impact on close family members & by consequence, be it to a much lesser degree, on us personally, too. For those like us, these issues were never far away even going back to our childhood.

Obviously this debate has origins from another thread due to a specific comment. Though not you personally, but in that thread some people, who also post here, later appear to defend the view that the German population were “persuaded” to agree to genocide. That claim can be quoted if I need to & the insinuation was fairly clear.

I get the sense that some still believe that the Nazis were empowered to do what they did partly because of an assumed tacit support from the “majority” of civilians who, according to some, definitely knew of the scale of the brutality. IMO, these are not merely subtle nuances of import even if there are other, more general points being made within such comments.

Some of those posters are active here. That’s why I initially became involved. Hence my mention of that in part of my comment. - Regards.


#3840

Hi Fiat,

I need to leave my desk shortly for most of tonight. But, IMO, we need to look at what’s being claimed here with a bit more honesty.

By way of example: If JD was a German citizen in WW2, let’s say working in the arms factory or whatever, who certainly knew about the gassing & mass executions of women & children, would I consider myself in some way complicit with those crimes if I continued to support Germany’s war effort & did nothing at all to undermine it, even at significant risk of personal harm? I certainly would do. From intellectual & moral honesty, I can’t see how it would be otherwise.

As for support for my country, come what may? I can’t judge what personal standards others have. Only we ourselves know that. But the thought of any such country of mine winning the war if I knew they were capable of such genocidal mass murder would be to consign myself to a life simply not worth living. - Regards.

PS: Previous comment withdrawn to avoid misunderstanding as I mistakenly replied to another poster.


#3841

I looked at the indices they follow first thing when I was surprised that one was up… but by end of day both were up. It depends what weighting of sectors they have in each index. Just as with certain companies that dominate the FTSE100 there’s similar with the MSCI China A Inclusion Index which HMCH tracks.
I was also wondering whether the long market break caused the index to be exaggeratedly lower if only some market segments were being priced and not all the components ie. if holidays aren’t aligned between mainland and elsewhere (like HK)… though haven’t bothered to research that as it should only be an issue today… nonetheless… maybe one that there’s money to be made from next year.

So… we’ll see more accurately I think over coming days where China markets go from here. I have a suspicion that in another week there won’t be any further large trend downwards… seems to me loss in earnings of various companies are already being priced in.