menu

Everyday

lse:lloy

#763

I did say I suspected you’d say nothing Pete.

Good to see you haven’t surprised me.

I guess by that you’ve been supportive of austerity then. That leaves me a little surprised, so you can shock. Well done.

If all it’s all good with you then as it is Pete, let’s keep austerity for another decade.

Which Leave would this be Pete?

I guess that means you would be supporting Brexit then if we implemented the suggestions of the Adam Smith Institute for example.

Theyre suggesing a wholesale re-engineer of the tax system post Brexit, cut in corporation tax and move from income tax to value added tax. The removal of stamp duty and reducing trade barriers substantially with the USA.

Of course, considerable further deregulation.

That would, I seem to remember, deliver by their estimation 5-7% annual growth in gdp for the next decade.

As well as moving much of the burden of taxation from earners to consumers.

As well as zero taxation on invested capital. Good for investors!

Now, as that’s provided a substantial growth projection, is not entirely dependent on Brexit, but they put if forward as a post-Brexit budget, you are now undoubtedly happy and supportivd of Brexit.

5% annual growth good enough for you Pete?

They’ve also suggested that a more open trade policy could benefit consumers, particularly around food.

Let’s not dwell on that Pete. I think we should be happy with 5% and that open trade arrangement with America.

Welcome to the fold Pete.

Anyone for chicken tonight?


#764

Austerity Nothing to do with the EU that is the Tories. Gap between rich and poor wider in the UK than anywhere in the EU…

Rich back Brexit and the Tories so that would get worse IF we brexit…


#765

So you’ve identified Pete there might be an opportunity in change?

Just a second ago you were all for no change!

Man-a-live, it’s difficult with you conservatives!


#766

DP, yes, it’s that fundamental bus again…those lies that means that Brexit is ‘possibly’ built upon sand. What’s the point? If we pay the same (or more) but are rule takers. What’s the point? If taking back control means the ‘politicians’ like Boris Johnson get to make the decisions:

  • A Thames estuary airport
  • A bridge to Ireland

What’s so terrible in letting the EU make decisions that our politicians don’t have the guts to make (or are being persuaded not to make). Our MP’s can still earn their pay by deciding what airports & roads NOT to build.

If only you could. Please try to tell me what all this upheaval is going to achieve…please don’t say ‘£350m per week for the NHS’ :face_with_monocle:

I presume you’re talking about chicken that’s been to the swimming pool and gone through the chlorinated foot wash to remove nasties?! I love the smell of chlorine in the morning.


#767

Everyday…

…support for Brexit crumbles. I have been saying for many months that a People’s Vote may be Theresa May’s only “get out of jail card”. It seems that even members of her cabinet have come to the same conclusion. Are they reading our posts folks???

There appears to be growing concern that May’s obstinacy is becoming an obstacle as her campaign to secure support is failing to bring enough MPs into line. Clearly there are many agendas at play but there is a fear that if the vote goes ahead on Tuesday that May will suffer a defeat of historic proportions making it impossible for her to continue and inflicting lasting damage on the Tory party.

Meanwile another opinion poll puts Remain ahead by 52% to 48%. The country remains as split as ever.

Cheers,

Frog in a tree


#768

Where do you start with comment like that? It’s suggests you have this view that the EU politicians are in someway superior to the home grown varieties. So would your preference would run to Italy or Hungry? Perhaps you should explain how that works? Is it more about conviction. You’ve already said you’ve changed your mind on this issue. Are you also now looking to change your view on democracy? Perhaps you feel distant democracy is somehow superior to local democracy or is it you just aren’t able to make your mind up, so let’s just leave it to the EU? You see I’ve noted a pretty common thread on here of calling voters proles. It’s as if “some” remainers aren’t that keen on democracy. Perhaps you could explain why you are so against democracy that’s local?

I never would. But, let me ask you a question. You recognize that Brexit has drawn support across political lines don’t you? I’ve tried to convey that earlier, but it doesn’t seem to sink in with some. You do agree with that don’t you? So, you could also possibly agree that people from distinctly different political views have different expectations of Brexit. Corbyn for instance, let’s be honest about him, feels that membership limits state aid and that limits his future political hopes. So given we’ve agreed on that point, about the political diversity of Brexit support , why do you keep coming back to wanting a single explanation on the benefits of Brexit, when it’s so obvious that those differ across political perspectives and expectations . It’s really like you need something simple, binary. It’s the politics of “orange man bad…”
Perhaps I could put this in simpler terms for you? I’m diametrically opposed to state aid, but would have accepted Corbyn campaigning for Brexit, if he could have been that honest , even though he believes in a different kind of Brexit.

It’s called expediency.

I guess it’s because you initially believed the bus, as a Brexit voter, but later became disheartened? I can only offer advice in that case. Think for yourself.

Oh, you can just hear it ‘but it’s a Tory Brexit…”

Only in rhetorical terms, I’m a vegetarian, so it’s never going to be chicken for me.

Looks like I’m going to have to add to my lexicon of remainers.

We’ve recognized that some are reactionary, some are conservatives (small c), but now do we need to add vacillaters - is that even a word? Maybe something that conveys “it’s all too difficult, so let’s just leave it to the EU” … thinking caps on. Just make it respectful.

Anti-democratic might also have to be included, I guess, from some of the comments you see on here.


#769

Day 110.

Another day with newspaper selling headlines, another day closer.


#770

DP, we have democracy in the UK even now…being in the EU doesn’t make us undemocratic. We still have our own budget, we still make laws, we still have general elections, we even democratically vote for our MEP’s.

It’s just that the EU as a powerful trading block can do things that we will struggle to do as a single country. So the question is “Do the benefits of being in the EU outweigh the negatives?”. We know a lot of the benefits but negatives seem illusory (IMO). Oh yeah, we get our blue/black passport back…whoopee :face_with_monocle:

Dp, isn’t that the real problem with Brexit…Brexit means different things to different people…you cannot get a Brexit that makes ‘everybody’ happy (even when ‘everybody’ are Leave voters).

Some wanted their blue/black passports but still want easy access to Europe for holidays. Some want an end to free movement but still want plenty of staff in our hospitals & care homes (and cheap Polish builders)…voting for Brexit was a panacea, a way of protesting about the ills in the world…it isn’t a solution & I think people will come to regret their decision. That’s why a 2nd referendum is needed IMO…to let ‘the people’ check that a bungee cord is attached before we make that final decision to leap.

Brexit is a mirage…the closer we get to it, it seems to disappear into the haze.

DP, I didn’t ask for a single reason…I asked for reasons. Worthwhile reasons and not just aspirations (such as ‘sovereignty’ & ‘national identity’ gobbledegook). Things that we can look back on and say “Yes it was worth all the effort”


#771

Are you sure about that? I’d suggest you might think about it a little more.

I’ve had this little test in the past, asking people who are suddenly very pro-EU if they voted in the past European elections or if they know who there MEP is? I really don’t need to tell you the common answer do I?

Perhaps we should consider something more academic?

Reif and Schmitt?

Well, “Karlheinz Reif and Hermann Schmitt concluded that European elections were fought on national issues and used by voters to punish their governments mid-term, making European Parliament elections de facto national elections of second rank.”

So, in your “just leave it to the EU” world you are advocating leaving decisions making to an institution that’s “de facto second rank”.

The color of passports maybe important to you, but not to me, but democracy does.

So, it’s not difficult to understand how not having the option of “punishment” voting is both invigorating for democracy and makes our own legislative process more responsive.

So can we can conclude by agreeing post-Brexit the UK will have enhanced its democracy?


#772

I will try to summarise our thread…

YOU asked – what would we lose by remaining
I said – Nothing UNLESS leaving would be a success which it wont be
You said – What about austerity
I said --Austerity Nothing to do with the EU that is the Tories ( we would still have that AND be worse off)

You then say So you’ve identified Pete there might be an opportunity in change?

Maybe you are just so clever I dont get it could you explain in simple language because I think its just senseless drivel


#773

Can you get a party political system that’s going to make everybody happy?

On the basis that every body needs to be happy you are pretty much chasing a dream.

Or is that just another example of being unhappy with democracy?

It very rarely makes “everyone happy”, but would we really want to give it up?


#774

Pete I gave you a indication of how a post Brexit economy could work.

One example from the array of broad visions that people have.

The one picked reflected the most liberal position that indicated 5-7% growth per annum.

There are others that include a more social if not socialist vision.

You said you were only for the status-quo, that includes exactly how the economy is presently organised, so it seems reasonable that you are pro-capitalism and accepting of the present broad European adoption of austerity.

I draw your attention to the fact the EU is pro-free market, has imposed austerity and is broadly anti-state control, so I can only conclude you share the same values?

Is that so difficult?


#775

This sort of suggests you think history will stop post Brexit. Doesn’t much of the looking back depend on the next stage of Brexit?

The choice about what defines our economy, and policies, post Brexit.

You really need to stop thinking in these terms.

You see it’s possible that we’ll win Brexit, but lose the post-Brexit opportunities.

I’m afraid that’s in the nature of democracy.

I’m afraid your are always going to vacillate if you don’t start to think more dynamically.


#776

ARE YOU REPLYING TO ANOTHER POST BECAUSE I HAVE NO IDEA HOW THIS ABOVE IS A REPLY TO MY POST BELOW… anyone else Know ??

YOU asked – what would we lose by remaining
I said – Nothing UNLESS leaving would be a success which it wont be
You said – What about austerity
I said --Austerity Nothing to do with the EU that is the Tories ( we would still have that AND be worse off)
You then say So you’ve identified Pete there might be an opportunity in change?
Maybe you are just so clever I dont get it could you explain in simple language because I think its just senseless drivel


#777

I’m gently trying to say to you Pete that we could have lost something. In this case the opportunity to have a different economy and society.

Because you don’t appear to want that, it’s reasonable to expect that you share the broad objectives of the EU - pro-market, fiscal austerity and broadly anti-state control.

Why is that so difficult to understand?


#778

MORE senseless drivel
ARE YOU REPLYING TO ANOTHER POST BECAUSE I HAVE NO IDEA HOW THIS ABOVE IS A REPLY TO MY POST BELOW… anyone else Know ??
YOU asked – what would we lose by remaining
I said – Nothing UNLESS leaving would be a success which it wont be
You said – What about austerity
I said --Austerity Nothing to do with the EU that is the Tories ( we would still have that AND be worse off)
You then say So you’ve identified Pete there might be an opportunity in change?
Maybe you are just so clever I dont get it could you explain in simple language because I think its just senseless drivel


#779

Devon,

You have gone into overdrive today.

Regarding your projection of 5 to 7% growth, I did note that it came from the extreme right-wing neo-liberal Adam Smith Institute. This organisation promotes an agenda where all that counts is individual profit at the expense of others. It promotes a libertarian agenda where there is little regulation and collective representation of workers is repressed. This greed is good culture got us the 2008/9 financial crisis. Tax evaders love the ASI because if its ideas gained currency they would have no need to evade tax as they wouldn’t have to pay much at all.

For the rest of us life wouldn’t be so great. The NHS would be privatised and the poor and infirm would be left to fend for themselves. Those of us who are not vegetarians would be eating chlorinated chicken, packed without any indication that this is the case.

I doubt that there is much in the way of democratic support for the ASI agenda. They have lots from right-wing nutjobs though!

Cheers,

Frog in a tree


#780

DP, a very clever thing to do…ask those same people if they bothered to vote in the General Election (or council elections :smiley:) and how many people actually know who their MP is (or local councillor)…your test question seems designed to get a response that supports your view of the EU…people have the democratic right to not get involved in the nitty-gritty of democracy (like voting).

If you ever watch ‘Pointless’ on the BBC and there is a question on UK politics (e.g. ‘Name a cabinet minister in Tony Blair’s premiership’) there will hardly be any correct answers.

So Brexit is the end of ‘punishment’ voting…really!!

General Elections are all about whether the ruling party will get ‘punished’ for the way they have (or haven’t) been running the country. I don’t see that stopping after Brexit…indeed there could be a ‘punishing’ vote against the Tories because of Brexit, perhaps that explains why the Conservatives are against an early GE at any cost.


#781

OK, Pete. I’m going to try one last time.

You say Nothing I say Change.

You don’t like austerity, I’m guessing. That’s why I picked that issue.

I’m suggesting that both sides of the political debate claim outside of the EU austerity will be eliminated.

A positive change, in your eyes I’m hoping.

On the left by state intervention

Or the right by greater deregulation

I’m not advocating for either, but you asked for some one to tell you about the financial benefits of leaving.

I gave you a detailed example of the libertarian vision, for my own ease. Indicating 5-7% annual growth and lower living costs. Just because I know it better. I’m suggesting there is also alternative left wing version. You will need to explore that yourself.

You said you don’t want change, so I’m assuming you are broadly happy with a pro-market, fiscal austerity and anti-state control. The status-quo.

Does that make it clearer?


#782

The man asked for a vision of growth, so I gave him one!

I would have tried giving him the alternative, but it was late.

Would you like to make the, unsaid, Corbyn arguement?