Brexit Wars 3



The FTSE 100 is well down this morning but banks and house builders are bucking the trend. I guess that the banks’ and builders’ shares are responding positively to the receding possibility of a hard Brexit. Assuming that our pro-Brexit friends on this board are shareholders in some of these companies at least they will have something to cheer them up this morning.

Best wishes,

Frog in a tree


Difficult discussions in parliament today I hate the extremists on the remain side who talk about racism. It is this polarised view that causes the problem when we need a grown up debate on immigration the lack of this debate may have caused Brexit.
It is clear that as a modern democracy we should support genuine refugees who can prove they are at risk, we should also have a system for allowing in skilled migrants and finally a system for temporary workers in areas such as agriculture.
Some of the genuine problems people see in the North, wales and other areas is what people perceive is unfair such as they can’t access council housing where migrants are immediately homes, struggling to get Doctors appointments when they see lots of migrants getting free care (other countries charge for example I paid in Italy when on holiday) pressure on services ghettos created where immigrants do not become part of local communities or integrate and in extreme cases misogynistic behaviour and attacks don’t help. In fact they create extremism which I abhor.
The decision in Germany which led to Millions of economic migrants mostly men travelling across Europe which let to what we saw pictures of those moving across Europe towards UK and led to fear.
What we need is a grown up debate on how we manage and reduce migration (we are a small island) to a number we can manage and cope with. This also means we should help those who are in genuine need. All my opinion
Now can those extreme remainers who keep crying racism stop being purile and suggest what should be done


Yes you are right getting a bit silly now… I just wonder what you do in between posting. Do you have to lick all the envelopes or do you have a little wet sponge…??


Its hard to deny Racism was a factor in the vote and it looks like all the Brexit politicians have left now is a threat that people will be on the streets. Riots would need to be in an area where they could use seniors bus passes…

Some of the genuine problems people see in the North, wales and other areas is what people perceive is unfair such as they can’t access council housing where migrants are immediately homes, struggling to get Doctors appointments when they see lots of migrants getting free care (other countries charge for example I paid in Italy when on holiday) pressure on services ghettos created where immigrants do not become part of local communities or integrate and in extreme cases misogynistic behaviour and attacks don’t help. In fact they create extremism which I abhor.

I dont disagree with this however majority of the LEAVE voters live in areas with few migrants.
Its true countries like ours need migrants but we need to integrate them and not just dump them in areas without any assistance to the area. It just leaves the population open to being incited by groups like UKIP EDL and lies from Politicians.


RRW - I doin’t disagree that the subject of Immigration (and Emigration for that matter) should be discussed especially if we do end up Leaving the EU and the UK then has to decide a new policy.

I think some of your post indicates you have facts where they simply are not true.

a) “they can’t access council housing where migrants are immediately homes”

Can’t be correct… although that may be the perception of some (you’d then have to ask why they have that perception).
Reality is that those migrants who are eligible to apply and would like social housing are placed on a
waiting list along with UK born people and they are then considered on the same
basis. The criteria for allocating social housing vary by housing association/council but within the
constraints of legislation which require priority to certain groups such as households with children, the elderly, the sick and homeless etc.

None give preference to migrants though.

b) “struggling to get Doctors appointments when they see lots of migrants getting free care”

How would they know that they are migrants? Just because someone in a waiting room has a dark face… it don’t mean they i) aren’t as much a UK citizen as them or ii) that they are a migrant.

c) "where immigrants do not become part of local communities or integrate "

What exactly are you expecting them to do? It’s perfectly natural that people will tend to settle down with people they know, speak the same languages etc. just as the Costa del Sol is full of English.

d) "The decision in Germany which led to Millions of economic migrants mostly men traveling across Europe "

7 years ago Libya was totally trashed with hardly a building left intact by an unholy alliance of western forces including notably US, France and UK. It was to enforce a “No Fly” zone expect there was then a lot of flying and a lot of bombs being dropped.
This follows on from the Iraq “war” 15 years ago where Iraq was totally trashed by the US with the support of the UK.
Both had in common that the public were lied to abut the reasons for the war… which were only about Regime Change and both caused the mobilisation of millions of refugees which is still a p[problem as they swirl through Europe now that the “cork” holding them… Libya… is a cork no more.


Frog Not really a serious investor most of my shares are in Bonds and I have all my Isas in cash. Have some investments in US shares via Fisher and Pension in offshore bond but cash sitting on sidelines in the "when to go back in " stage…

Of my few shares Dechra not going well (thanks) but I will hang in there, but best be far is Greggs I figure people will buy more pasties the worse thing get…


Disappointed J still a polarised view and you wonder why remainers are creating divisions
As I said perceptions however if you are on a 15 year waiting list for accommodation and see others jump in front of you then it has a negative impact
Please provide solutions J instead of throwing mud in a childish way


Great post JW.

Is it amazing how people say “all these migrants come over here take all the houses and sign on with the doctors”

I heard it so many times and it never challenged by anyone.


RRW - You clearly know zip about housing association/council social housing policy.
I actually do.
Migrants and all others who are eligible… go onto waiting lists where they are subject to the same policy and rules. They do not “jump a queue”.
The rules are the same for all. If someone new joined the housing register and looking for a particular type of home them they can be assessed and given a ‘score’ that moved them up or down… just like anyone else.
Councils/Housing associations policies and scoring methods are accessible online and completely transparent as well as audited.

Can you explain how my post had a “polarised view” when I only stated facts ?
Can you explain why you said I was “throwing mud in a childish way” ?


It’s actually something that predates Brexit and has been said since the 60s at least. I well remember growing up in Glasgow and people around complaining how the council gave a flat to person x but they didn’t get one yet… just human behaviour.

The systems that Housing Departments at Associations and Council now use are totally automated. It still requires people to assess and check aspects the housing register application of course to ensure what has been completed is correct… but it is the same process for all.


Seen a Labour proposal to provide extra funding for areas when Migrants are located.

Just a Point about Amazon and similar … Not about high street…

These companies are extremely efficient click a button today and package arrives tomorrow (generally) Great for households and small to med businesses dont need carry stock and can get parts next day… make the whole UK tick…

I use Amazon a lot every time I get a package its delivered by a guy with east European look and accent. I expect these guys work really hard and long hours for a min wage allowed by the GOV…

I got a package from Royal Mail the other day they couldn’t deliver so instead of giving to a neighbour it went back to depot for me to collect. Depot only opens til 1.00 and its a way away so 3 days later I got the package. (I wont be using Royal mail again)

IF we dont have these guys do we have UK people who will do this work??
IF not every part thats delivered will cost more for people and businesses.
Will we be able to compete with other countries… ??


This is getting embarrassing , We need to remain in the EU so you can get your packages delivered ?
I hope you mates tick up your post…lol


RRW , Housing works on a points system, And your correct in that immigrants gain more points by default, Hence housing is given to immigrants first, That’s the reality.


Ok RRW, that was a decent post.

However, I would argue that your post was framed by a perspective that migration is “a problem”.

When we talk about refugees and migrants being a drain on our services we ought to recognise that the refugees were the product of western foreign policy mistakes in the middle east and that the UK was a major contributor to the turmoil in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria. In terms of numbers of refugees in the UK the UNHCR says:

“Does the UK have more asylum seekers than most countries?
No it does not. In the 12 months prior to June 2018, the UK received 27,044 applications from main applicants, a 1% decrease from the previous year. Over the same period, there have been wider falls in asylum applications to other EU countries (down 32%).
This is considerably less than the number of applications received in many other countries, and makes the UK sixth out of the EU’s 28 member states in terms of asylum applications. In the year ending June 2018 Germany received the highest number of applications (168,000), followed by France (108,200), Italy (101,900), Greece (57,900) and Spain (37,300). World-wide around 85% of all refugees are hosted in developing countries not in wealthy industrialised countries.
(Source: Home Office)”

As you will see, depite being the world’s 5th biggest economy, the UK’s contribution to providing asssistance has been poor in comparison to other EU countries. Even under the Dubs amendment, which mandated HMG to assist child refugees with relatives in the UK in having their cases assessed, we have seen little concerted effort, only foot-dragging by government agencies.

Although you won’t appreciate this, I think we would be right to consider whether this is an example of institutional racism springing from the same mindset as the Windrush affair. Theresa “Red line” May is a common factor.

The above account only reinforces concerns about institutional racism at the Home Office.

You will also note that refugees are barred from working and receive very small amounts of money in terms of benefits. I suppose that this is intended as a punative disincentive to claiming asylum in the UK. In my view it is plain stupid when these people could be working for their living and contributing to the Treasury and our national prosperity.

When we look at migrant workers, it was interesting that last week’s economic impact assessments specifically commented on the economic impact that a reduction in the availability of migrant workers would have. Of course, it was a negative impact. Migrants contribute more to the exchequer than they take out in benefits and services. Not that you would have got this impression from reading the Mail and the Express during the referendum. In the eastern and south eastern rural heartlands of Brexit I doubt very much that people were being deprived of access to their GPs because of pressure from migrant and refugee demand. However, I have no doubt at all that HMG was simply pocketing migrant taxes rather than using them to support public services. That’s Tory austerity for you.

As for housing, the biggest problem in the UK is that house prices are out of reach of very many people. I doubt very much that migrants and refugees have been bidding up house prices but I am pretty certain that Right to Buy and the prohibition of local authority spending on house building has had a big impact.

The big elephant in the room that Brexiters are not facing is the demographic change that is taking place in the UK in which so many of them are playing a personal role. This is the aging of our society and the rotation of workers into pensioners which has reduced the proportion of the population available for work. The big increase in pensioners is increasing demand for health and social care services which has to be staffed. I doubt whether migrants are complaining that they can’t get a place in a care home because of the queue jumping by pensioners. No, the migrants are the ones doing a lot of the care that is so needed.

We have technical full employment at the moment and there are insufficient UK nationals available to fulfill our need for labour. There is no getting away from this, whether it is to pick strawberries or to wipe old people’s bums or to work the NHS or in the City we cannot survive without flexible, top up labour. Brexiter xenophobes are going to be sorely disappointed and will feel misled and betrayed. Honesty woukd have been the best policy and our political leaders should have told the truth about our need for migrant labour and how it benefits us. Our economy needs migrants and we need to have to labour and a prosperous economy to support our ageing population.

I hope I have addressed some of your points RRW.


Frog in a tree


Great post.

I suppose, where you and I will disagree is that you believe that there will be a substantial rally after a second referendum and things will get back to where they were pre June 2016. I don’t think this will happen. I think the damage is already done. Many businesses will depart before the 2nd referendum. I really don’t think the UK recover from this


Hi Mac,

I think you have made a good point there in that over the last two years a lot of damage has been done. There is a lot of evidence of investment freezes and as JW reminds us, there is a lot of evidence of financial service companies setting up bases in the EZ. Not all of this will be reversed.


Frog in a tree


Frog, do you ever consider anything else? Furthermore, when you’ve finished running the country down in the time honoured remainer tradition you might want to consider how much foreign aid Britain gives relative to everyone else in the world.


@broadmoor1 - You are a liar. You no longer have any credibility as you persistently lie… this claim is just one more example.

Immigrants do not gain more points by default.

To even be eligible a migrant would need to have a ‘Settled’ status or be an EEA registered worker.
Most new migrants, including asylum-seekers, students and work visa holders have no entitlement to social housing.

So assuming they pass eligibility criteria… noting above then allocation of social housing is outlined in the Housing Act which says that a number of groups of people should be given priority in the allocation of social housing, namely:

  • Those who are homeless, or who are threatened with homelessness.
  • Priority needs groups, such as families with children and the elderly.
  • People living in unsuitable or accommodation, for example, a home without an inside toilet.
  • People living in overcrowded accommodation.
  • Those who need to move on medical or welfare grounds.
  • People who need to move to a particular area to prevent hardship.

People are judged on the same above basis for their eligibility for particular houses/flats.


Unfortunately, @macbonzo and yourself are correct there. For the financial institutions, they’ve sunk the costs, put the effort in and over the coming weeks many are implementing the flow Changes (some already have gone Live). I guess that some will wait for the last moment to effect the Changes but difficult to see at the moment why any would stop.


Hi Huw,

I am pleased my post gave you some food for thought. You do seem to get exercised when I express that view that there is a thread of xenophobia running through many (not all) Brexit supporters and their organisations. Quite hilarious that UKIP has become too racist and Islamophobic for Farage to tolerate. You really couldn’t make it up. I think Farage has been slow to cotton on. I have been saying that UKIP and its supporter group are racist for years.

You are right that the UK is among the top rank of international aid providers. The details and background are here:

You will see that the UK is meeting its international commitment.

Credit where credit is due, you will see from the graph that there was an uplift in the graph corresponding with the election of the Blair government and contined by David Cameron’s administration.

I am pleased that you are supportive of our contribution to international aid but I am sure that you are also well aware that there are many voices on the right wing and neo-fascist fringes that argue that we should reduce our international aid and spend the money in the UK instead.

I am not running down my country. I am proud of its progressive and humanitarian traditions. What I object to is how the right wing is seeking to destroy these and how they are seeking refuge in nationalism and isolation. I will continue to argue my case.

Frog in a tree