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Brexit Wars 3

lse:hsba
lse:lloy
lse:barc

#25484

Bojo I have never tried to deceive the public … ??

image


#25485

Or…

November 18:
Johnson: “We have already cut it from 28 to 19%, the lowest of any major economy. The alternative is Corbyn – who would whack it straight back up to the highest levels in Europe.”

Fact: Corporation Tax is still higher in France (32%), Portugal (32%), Germany (30%), Belgium (30%), Greece (28%) and Italy (28%). Labour have proposed 26%.


#25486

Or…

November 15:
Johnson: “The figure we’re spending is £34billion - it’s the biggest increase in modern memory in the NHS.”

Fact: This is still less than it used to rise under Labour - and comes after years of Tory cuts. The IFS said: “UK health spending has historically grown at an average real rate of 3.6% per year, but grew by just 1.3% per year between 2009−10 and 2018−19.”


#25488

So Boris was lying then again eh? Or did he simply not check his facts?


#25490

Heard the guy with the narwhal tusk was Polish
Bojo will be banging on about law and order looking for someone to blame after…

• 18 Prisons closed by Tories
• 10,000 Prison Officers axed
• Prison Officers attacked up 84%
• 15% of Prison Services Privatised
• Average Prison Officer salary just £23k
• 60% of Prisons overcrowded


#25491

It is true Pete that the consequences of austerity are all around us.

There was an interesting article in The Times by Iain Martin contemplating that in the event of the expected Tory election victory the Tories will still inherit the fruits of their austerity in the form of public anger about the state of their services.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/victorious-tories-will-face-a-massive-backlash-in-2020-hhx0ccdr7?utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=newsletter_&utm_medium=email&utm_content=7965523&CMP=TNLEmail_5252443_7965523

In these circumstances Labour should have walked the election but this is impossible with Corbyn as leader. At the time of the 2015 I pleaded with my Labour MP not to support Corbyn. Unfortunately with the influx of the new membership Corbyn walked it beating Andy Burnham comprehensively. It is not hard to believe that had Burnham won then Labour would not be so badly placed.

Even with Labour’s difficulties over its supporters’ Leave or Remain attitudes, Corbyn looks a proper plonker not to declare a position on Brexit and no doubt Labour is losing support from both sides of the debate.

Frog in a tree


#25492

Yep, you’re right Pete… Luckasz, the chef at Fishmongers’ Hall is going to get the blame for this one and probably for the theft of the tusk too.

And yet in 2017… Labour increased its share of the popular vote by 10% and won 30 more MPs than in 2015… under Corbyn.


#25493

yes as Ive said here before the biggest thing going for the Tories is Corbyn.
I dont dislike him and a lot of the RW attacks are unjustified but the fact is so many of my older friends are terrified of him, even the Remain supporters thats something labour needed to accept and deal with. Might have been good to let Starmer be more in the limelight…


#25494

Pete - It’s just a fact… when most people get to about 50… they vote Tory.


#25495

Corbyn’s personal position on Brexit is obvious… he wants to leave the EU with a deal.
The Labour Party at two Conferences now have also voted to leave the EU.
I don’t see any reason why the leader of a Party is compelled to promote one side or the other in something that divides every major Party (including the Lib Dems though they gloss over that).
The Labour Party have said they will allow a People’s vote on a Deal versus Remain… the ONLY Party to offer that… and the ONLY realistic way out that can have any legitimacy to counter the 2016 referendum.


#25496

JW that might be true but so many I speak to hate Brexit but the next sentence is
"ooh but we cant have Corbyn " just a fact they are afraid of him… Labour needs to face that…


#25497

And next time out… they’ll be saying “ooh but we cant have Thornberry”… or “ooh but we cant have Rayner”… or “ooh but we cant have Starmer”.
Don’t think for one moment that hey will suddenly engage with Labour policies. If they can’t bring themselves to talk about POLICIES now then they never will.


#25498

By the way… talking of consistency with Leaders…who said this?

2008… “We would like to have a referendum on the major issue of whether we are in or out of Europe… It would be welcome to have such a debate in the country.”

2009… “It is time for the people of Britain to have their say on Europe.”

2010… Who was re-elected to Parliament after standing on a manifesto that stated:
“The European Union has evolved significantly since the last public vote on membership over thirty years ago. We therefore remain committed to an in/out referendum the next time a British government signs up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU.”

Now roll on to 2017… Who was the person re-elected on a manifesto that promised a second referendum?

Guessed who?

Yep… Jo Swinson.


#25499

JW the point I was making that Labour need to face up that many many older ppl are terrified of him
The ones I speak to never say labour but we cant have Corbyn all the big companies will leave we will be bankrupt I hear it all the time in Portugal and UK with almost no one arguing against. except me I usually say “what could be worse than what we have now”

I personally have little problem with him its just that the RW media have done a great job on him over the years and labour need to find a way of dealing with it…


#25500

Hi Pete,

True enough. But when we look at the bigger picture, we see a long-term trend here.

I recall in my youth when the RW media did a right job on Michael Foot. I was in my teens, still very naive & the level of ad hominem aimed at Foot genuinely shocked me. They also did a job on Neil Kinnock (twice) & Ed Miliband. The latter also took extraordinary levels of ad hominem, even extending to his late Father.

In between that something unusual & significant happened for a so-called Labour leader. Tony Blair had tea with & befriended the media mogul Rupert Murdoch. Reassurances were given to win over Murdoch’s support.

For all the positives of Blair, & to give credit there were some notables, we also saw UK’s wealth divide continue to widen & the UK became an increasingly strong ally of US foreign policy, with few questions asked. That’s caused untold damage since & goes on to this day: we still read of many people dying every day in Iraq.

So it seems that to curry favour with the RW media, a Labour leader has to heed the examples set by Blair. Well, Corbyn is very much his own man & has too much integrity to ever go down that route.

Though as it stands, I think Johnson may win his working majority, I’ll also not be surprised if we see unprecedented numbers of younger people voting on 12/12. Many of these will not be represented on any polls. If the youth come out, whilst Corbyn won’t win a majority, a hung Parliament is still not out of the question. - Regards.


#25501

only big picture for me is stopping brexit and if BOJO gets a majority to push this fraud through it will be in part because of labour.
I want to see all Remain types working together and then it would be very difficult to see anything other than a hung parliament and it need labour to make some move towards tactical voting and the others to reciprocate…


#25502

Not so much the Labour Party but a largely, crass, ill-educated and mindless population who are spoon-fed false stories by the largely pro-Tory and pro-right wing Media that first got them to vote for Brexit and then at every General Election re-herds them to vote Tory.
It doesn’t always work as Jack pointed out but that’s usually only after years of f@ck ups from a Tory Government.

Your mates are typical examples of the zombies out there waiting to be told what to think and what mantra to blurt out when the right trigger words are said.
John is another perfect example of this… an original thought hasn’t formed in his head for decades if ever.


#25503

I see that the BBC have surrendered to the Tory Party again… and Johnson will get his chance to slag off Corbyn and Labour Party on the Marr Show… again… rather than the more hostile Andrew Neil.


#25504

Hi JW,

Much agree & proof of it is ample. If we forget Corbyn briefly, let’s take Ed Miliband. Ed was in fact a fairly moderate Labour leader, not untypical of many Social Democrat politicians elected all over the EU. Little about him was that radical. He cared more about protecting UK’s economy & free markets than do arrant liars & Brexiteer ideologues like Johnson & Gove.

The principled Miliband strongly refused to gamble with UK’s future prosperity on any grounds. He rejected appeasing extreme populism for political gain. However, he also wanted to see a greater alignment between social responsibility & the free market. Admirable goals.

The RW media’s ceaseless twisting of facts & caricatures of Ed Miliband were always accompanied by slogans such as, “Red Ed”, often with false references to a Communist Father, who they alleged may have once spied for the Soviet Union. All lies & proven to be so, with an agenda to mislead the gullible. However, significant damage to reputations was done as the dim swallowed the garbage gleefully & regurgitated it to their dimmer associates.

It’s a wonder that some are even given the vote, let alone Referendums on complex issues. That said, the gutter-press in the UK really are that. They’d take some beating by comparison for spreading lies, hate & division. There are no parallels anywhere in the EU or across much of the free world.

Elsewhere, the press have at least some responsibility to report factually & to avoid gross distortion. Here? Freedom of the press seems to equate to also lying blatantly, be it often by omission, & with very little consequence for any damage done. That suits the status quo.

As the RW media here dominates, it’s no wonder that we’ve not had a real left-wing government in UK since the era of Harold Wilson. Seriously. Yet all blame for the UK’s problems is directed at the left-wing or the EU. That almost sums up the sad state of things here over recent decades. - Regards.


#25505

true but many are just nice old ppl not taken in by Brexit not your typical zombie and I have talked to a few if those
but as I said labour need to face up to the image these folks have been fed of corbyn such that they will not vote labour…