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Brexit Wars 3

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#27056

Not that brexiter loons care but this result would be much wider in a referendum now we all know UK will be worse off …

Boris Johnson is set to take the UK out of the European Union at a time when a majority of voters want to stay, according to a new poll.

The BMG survey for The Independent found that with less than three weeks to go before Brexit Day on 31 January, voters are split by the highly symbolic margin of 52-48 per cent in favour of Remain – the reverse of the original fraud…


#27057

A reminder that we are not going away…

In his Observer column, Will Hutton reminds us that Remainers are not going to disappear. It may take a long while before the folly of Brexit and the lies and xenophobia are exposed but when they are the Tories will have to own it wholly. Meanwhile the younger more progressive, more educated younger Harry and Meghan generation will resent the loss of euro rights imposed on them by the older generation and the calls for rejoining will grow louder.

Cheers,

Frog in a tree


#27058

SBK,

You could just as easily show the same level of bias for an opposite view & say that even more “dross” decamps to large cities than elsewhere, largely taking their prejudices with them.

Those “dross populations” you refer to also previously worked hard throughout your dirty industries, often over lifetimes to retire on relatively poor pensions.

OTOH, there was far worse dross behind the financial crisis, leading to subsequent austerity &, indirectly, Brexit. That other dross has roots in your much lauded brainy contingents that worked over deregulated financial markets to their own advantage via the most reckless speculation.

They were empowered by yet worse dross that people like you (if not you personally) put into power.

Edit: typo.


#27059

It is not bias to say that young people who do well at school want to or are forced to move to large cities from small towns or rural areas to get better life chances. That process has been going on for decades and is accelerating as these “dirty industries” you refer to have just about vanished and with them high and low level jobs.

The small group of chancers who have profited from deregulated financial markets are the very sort of people who have thrust Brexit and Toryism on the masses. The Rees - Slugs, Liar Johnsons and Farages of the country. And irony of ironies those who are suffering most from their scam behaviour are the mugs in smaller, depressed towns.

IMHO,

SBK


#27060

SBK,

But the nasty, petty-minded bias I refer to is the generalisation “dross populations” regarding those who, for whatever reason, live in or close to those areas you vilify. Who are you (or anyone else) to judge their kind with such arrant contempt?


#27061

Because I know a fair number of people like them. They have no mercy for people different to themselves such as migrants, asylum seekers, Muslims, black and Asian people, the homeless, drug addicts and Meghan Markle. Petty minded nasty little drossers they are. I don’t patronise them by holding the misguided belief that they are noble savages. Now they have been allowed to drag the country into the gutter via the Referendum and their tabloid indoctrinated views have given all of Britain a bad name overseas as an ignorant, hate filled dosshole of a country, even in the USA for Chrissake!

My right to judge them is due to the fact that as yet free speech just about survives in the toxic atmosphere of blighted blighty. And of course I am right.

IMHO,

SBK


#27062

SBK,

Of course we all have a right to judge others as we see them. That doesn’t make us correct, unless of course we know them extremely well on a personal level. But in many cases, people judge others without knowing them all that well, if at all.

The kinds of people you refer to exist all over. Not least also in large cities. They also come from various backgrounds. That’s the problem with over-generalising & stereotyping folk according to their grassroots or their locations.

For eg. I’d never say that most Londoners are extremely selfish, arrogant, insecure & stupid enough to think that because they live in a capital city, that they’re in some ways better than others. That’d be daft. However, I know for a fact that some (presumably a minority) do have such pathetic pretensions having personally met more than a few. No surprise that some of that ilk are also mostly mouth when push comes to shove.

Agree that the unscrupulous behaviour & low standards of much of UK’s popular media has much to answer for, including & beyond Brexit. I’ve said before that, to the best of my knowledge, no other democracy in the world has anywhere near the daily levels of manipulative, biased, hate-spreading garbage that passes for journalism as we have in UK. But presumably UK’s media would use a similar argument as “free speech” to justify themselves also: ie. it’s freedom of the press.

That’s how it’s been for at least the past few decades. But whilst we can’t change some of those perennial issues anytime soon (though more people not clicking-on or reading its kind would help), we can at least change ourselves. - GL. Edit: typo corrected.


#27063

Funny how much you care about Britain having a bad name as “an ignorant, hate filled dosshole of a country” when that is exactly what you think it is and never, ever tire of telling us so.


#27064

Interesting to watch the Meghan and Harry affair pan out in the public debate and to consider how this sits alongside on Brexit-infected Britain.

One thing that strikes me is that the RW popular press is once again at the centre of the debate inflaming misguided patriotic passions. I don’t think it can be denied that Meghan’s American background and mixed race heritage have once again led to her being “othered”. Although outright and explicit racism hasn’t been a feature the reporting of her baby as resembling a “chimp” came pretty close.

I have long argued that xenophobia and racism were a factor in the referendum among a minority significant to tip the vote in favour of Leave but the reality was that not all Leave voters were directly xenophobic, but a lot of them were swayed by xenophobic beliefs and propaganda such as the notion that decisions affecting the UK were being taken by foreigners rather than as part of a process in which we were full participants. But, hey! the RW press pitched the argument that way. There never a majority in favour of Brexit as perhaps only a third of those eligible to vote voted for it. Even now the latest opinion polling shows a majority favours Remain.

But, back to Harry and Meghan, there is a lot of negative response from the RW press to Harry and Meghan’s situation and lots of questioning of their motives and suggestions of disloyalty to the Queen. I have seen very little criticism in the press of the way that the House of Windsor operates and how much behind the times they are in their attitudes and how they conduct themselves. I don’t think there has been even a squeak of disapproval about the way that Prince Andrew has conducted himself for instance. In contrast what I have seen is that there is a groundswell of sympathy for Harry and Meghan among the young, among women, among people of colour and the educated. It is striking how much the fault line on this issue ressembles the national split that we have seen on Brexit. In terms of the debate above, between SBK and JD, there is something rotten in the state of England but its causes have the same roots which are the RW populist press and the nostalgia for imagined better times in the past by the older more conservative members of society.

I do fear for the future because the ignorance of the minority is leading to a poorer, less progressive future for our more educated younger compatriots. I am coming to the conclusion that a united Ireland and an Independent Scotland will overtake backward looking England in the decades to come.

Cheers,

Frog in a tree


#27065

I agree with a lot of what you write. But I’m staggered on this board, when the inference is that it’s a particular problem in the England/Britain/UK. Which is plain nonsense.

Yes there is a racist element, but I would argue every single country on this planet has an element of racism in their respective societies that is equal or greater than here. And they are not experiencing Brexit.

Racism is rife in America (which seems to have exploded under Trump - or maybe more awareness with social media) Germany has it’s problems, Italy with their recent ridiculous treatment of black footballers, Spain has had similar situations, Bulgaria, Russia. Ever been to China, Hong Kong and Japan (white people are called ghosts) - their guides (Lonely planet etc) has sections devoted to it. UAE and their utter disdain to workers from African or other parts of Asia.

The list is endless and despite what you keep saying, racism is no more exclusive to these shores than anywhere else.

But back to Meghan - you’re new hobby horse to beat Brexit voters with; I’ve never met the woman and literally have no opinion on a woman who holds no interest to me whatsoever, or one I’ve never met and I suspect that view is shared by the majority of the nation. My opinion on her is no different to Kate, Sophie or any other woman in the Royal Family. The Royal Family is a medieval concept that should be ditched. Should have been way before Meghan turned up.

This isn’t necessarily about you per se @frog_in_a_tree, but what really frustrates me, and is a cowards trick, is to accuse every white person of racism if they happen to criticise someone of colour. It’s infantilising people of different ethnicities beyond belief to cry racism every time they’re criticised by someone who happens to be white and it really is the sign of a sick mind to invent racism where it doesn’t exist and to presume that it’s not possible to evaluate another human beings behaviour without being racist; that’s some serious f’ing projecting there. People these days deliberately interpret people’s comments with the most pejorative view possible and wear it like a badge of honour; they’re a joke.

Twitter is absolutely infested with MAGA racist scum, they tend not to be inconspicuous. You don’t need to go looking for it, where it doesn’t exist.

Definitely not

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OR

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OR

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By what measure? :


#27066

So who has accused on this thread of "every white person of racism " ?
You are creating a false narrative again.

Frog was talking about the influence of the right wing Media and the similarities of what happened with Brexit.


#27067

Am I?


#27068

Hi Fiat,

Nothing personal against Harry & Meghan here, but the sooner this crusty, archaic institution crumbles & all those associated with it pass into relative insignificance, so much the better. Some will recoil at the thought of an elected President (if we need even that & I do question it?), but at least they can be voted out after a few years for whatever reason. Unlike this bunch of parasites.

All this attention on the Windsors seems like much ado about nothing. When one considers the behaviour of Andrew & previously his aunt Margaret, who was also renowned for various excesses at tax payers expense, one hopes that after QE2 we shall see the beginning of the end of this embarrassing anachronism. Little seems more regressive in the UK than the continued fawning or preoccupation from large elements of the public over these complete non-entities.

That said, I agree there’s probably a racist element to criticisms of Meghan. But also, what did she seriously expect from UK’s popular gutter-press? Plus, these people get more than enough perks from tax payers to endure at least some crap. To hell with the lot of them.

The ones I feel sorry for are the ordinary, anonymous citizens, some of who get abused for all sorts of reasons, including racially, but who have none of the advantages of this pair. - Regards.


#27069

Apologies, when I said no sqeak of disapproval about Andrew’s behaviour, I should have made it clear that I meant from within the House of Windsor.

Frog


#27070

Do you think? Isn’t it the press that has blown up both stories and actually very little has been leaked from directly from the Royal Family or the Queen? I get the impression, she likes to keep everything in house. When Prince Andrew stepped down from public office, wasn’t that to be interrupted as the disapproval from the House of Windsor?

The only stuff leaked in the Meghan/Harry story, is actually from them via their website and Instagram account and perhaps to some trusted (or not so trusted) journalists.


#27071

Thank you JW. I have never said all white people are racist. I think I was perfectly clear. Neither have I said that Englad is uniquely racist compared with other nations. I think that the thrust of my post in that I saw parallels between the Harry and Meghan issue and that of Brexit was fair comment.

Cheers,

Frog in a tree


#27072

Where did I say YOU did? Which is why I wrote:

And there is a strong inference on this board, whether you wish to admit it or not.


#27073

What you actually said was

This isn’t necessarily about you per se @frog_in_a_tree, but what really frustrates me, and is a cowards trick, is to accuse every white person of racism if they happen to criticise someone of colour.

Isn’t “necessarily” about ? It sound like it was since you were responding to my post. It is ridiculous to suggest that it is impossible to say that there are some in our society who have racist attitudes without implying that all members of our society are racist.

Frog in a tree


#27074

Well you for a start.


#27075

That’s right Frog, ultra progressive Ireland where they’ve literally only just legalised abortion is going to storm past regressive England. You make me laugh so much sometimes. The only backward looking people in this country are the absolute plums on this BB who seem to think the world suddenly went bad in June 2016 and hanker for the halcyon days of a pre 2016 past that never existed in the first place. A classic example is @J_Westlock banging on about how terribly racist football is when in reality it was far worse in the past than it is now.