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Brexit Wars 3

lse:hsba
lse:lloy
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#27076

Hi Fiat,

Few would disagree that racism & xenophobia were at least factors behind Brexit. Not the only ones, but migrants were definitely highlighted in a more negative light during the run-up to 2016’s Referendum. But we’re also mindful that many Britons of Asian, Afro-Caribbean & other non-UK origins also voted Brexit for various other reasons.

I also don’t think that the UK is any worse than other EU states &, more to the point, UK is still better than some for tolerance in general. It could be better of course, but xenophobia & intolerance in some Eastern European EU states is much worse. That’s evident beyond the racist chanting we frequently read about from their football terraces.

It’s also fair to say that before 2008’s financial crisis & the ensuing punitive austerity, the brunt of which fell on UK’s poorer communities, far fewer people even questioned the merits or cons of EU membership. Back then it wasn’t at the forefront of as many peoples preoccupations.

However, as often happens when large segments of any population feels greater financial hardship for longer periods, they become more inclined to seek convenient scapegoats for their misery. Here, rather than bringing the real culprits to greater account, ie. the reckless speculators behind the financial crisis, the RW press increasingly focused on the EU as a undemocratic bureaucracy increasingly sucking billions from UK’s coffers, money that could instead be spent on improving the lives of ordinary Britons via improved public services, better hospitals, schools, etc. Farage & the Tories particularly played on that.

Considering the combined strength of the anti-EU campaign, you can see why many ordinary British citizens were taken in. That doesn’t make the majority of them bad people, let alone racists.

Now it’s done, so one hopes that the UK can at least walk away with strong trade deals that will see mutual benefits for both sides. More compromises will be necessary, but I think that’ll happen as it’s in the strong interests of both sides to see a positive resolution. So overall I’m optimistic for UK, be it with some reservations due to tight deadlines. - Regards.


#27077

Another lie from lying Huw.


#27078

Many did but most didn’t.
In total, 3/4 of the BME population voted to Remain.


#27079

I have never once said that racism in football is worse today than the past.
You really are a twat.


#27080

Hi JW,

Probably close. Hence I wrote “many", not “most”. This fairly objective source has it at about a third of said minorities voted to leave. So still highly significant & relevant to the particular point I made. Quote:

“Research by the British Election Study suggests the ethnic minority vote was crucial in the EU referendum. Only a third voted Leave, but those voters could well have clinched it for Brexit.”

[https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/yasmin-alibhai-brown-minorities-1-5274366]


#27081

Funny logic to say that the third of BAME who voted Leave clinched it! The majority voted for Remain but were outnumbered by the predominantly English older voters who support Leave.

Frog


#27082

Well I don’t want any deals. I would like the Brexit side to see what their wishes really mean. The worse things get the sooner the population may come to its senses and get us back in the wonderful EU club.

The signs that this pig in a poke isn’t going to work are all around: falling car sales, GDP down, bell - weather Lloyds slumping, airlines plummeting, the High Street shutting up shop, nobody even cares about mothers anymore it seems. And interest rates to be slashed yet again to forlornly jump - start the feeble economy.

As for the “negotaitions” the EU are signalling a hardball game and Liar Johnson is going to end up with egg all over his stupid face. Oh for a decent opposition to all this!

IMHO,

SBK


#27083

SBK,

The key part I much agree with & for similar reasons is the importance of a “decent opposition”. Too late to stop Brexit, but if Labour is led by someone like Long-Bailey offering more of the same? Well, no disrespect to her & her principles, but agreeing with others, I think Johnson will be very happy with someone like LB.

However, Starmer will pose a far stiffer challenge as I think he’d also have support from the best available Labour MPs (Benn, Cooper, et al). So if Johnson messes up UK’s economy with a No-Deal Brexit & backtracks on too many key pledges, as he’d be forced to without a Deal, I can see a much more formidable Labour under Starmer winning back most of the heartlands they lost recently, if not surpassing that.

No surprise that both sides are signalling a hardball approach. But I think both sides will also do what it takes to avoid a hard Brexit as it’ll be internecine to both economies.

Some of the negatives you’ve outlined would’ve happened anyway. The High Street would be struggling even without Brexit as ever more debt-ridden consumers look for cheaper online prices & that’s been the increasing trend since well before 2016. - Regards.


#27084

Interesting (to me) were conversations with two Corbyn supporting Labour members, one appproaching 70 and the other my 22 year old grandson who are now supporting Starmer’s bid for the leadership. Straws in the wind perhaps, but likely indicative of sentiment in the party.

Also in reference to JD’s comments earlier today, I can add that I had the pleasure of interviewing a bright young female engineering graduate. She was a hijab wearing muslim of great presence, learning and skill. What was notable was that she spoke of her regret that Brexit will reduce her freedoms and business opportunities. Viewpoints indistinguishable from my grandson who is studying politics. I concluded that in her community the split in worldviews, Brexit et al was pretty much split on age lines as it is in the white community.

For what is worth…

Frog in a tree


#27085

Is he losing it,


#27086

Why would Iran ever do that? They would swallow a million US soldiers (if the US had that many) in the jungle, the mountains, the deserts, the cities, the swamplands and would kill dozens a day with the most sophisticated, state-made not-so-improvised explosive devices the world has ever seen.

Like I said, the thought that USA can successfully invade Iran is complete idiocy.


#27087

What has economics got to do with my comment?

If the U.S. try to invade Iran it will make Vietnam look like a joke.


#27088

The “chimp” thing was ex BBC broadcaster Danny Baker tweeting an unfortunate photo not the RW press. Baker very quickly deleted it saying it was a joke that backfired and he stupidly hadn’t even thought about the racist connotations. The press rightly reported Baker’s idiotic tweet and he was denounced and sacked for his thoughtlessness. You also say very little criticism about Prince Andrew. Rubbish. He was rightly reviled by the press on all sides and it went on for days (if not weeks) after his disastrous tv interview made it all a lot worse. I do agree with you that Harry and Meghan have been treated badly and unfairly by the UK press and I don’t blame them for wanting to get away from it all.


#27089

@petethenovice … want to retract anything?


#27090

No. It is well established that the people with the most ‘get up and go’ are the ones that move to find a better life, whether to cities or countries that provide more opportunities. Less self-motivated people are less likely to move and less likely to make things happen in terms of entrepreneurship.

It is a well documented economic fact and one reason why immigration is generally a good thing for the economy but why dross look at successful immigrants and make up stories about how they were given chances that they never got.

They are deluding themselves. It is like all the people who say, I always fancied being my own boss’. Only a small percentage ever get of their arses and make it happen.


#27091

Hi Eadwig,

No-one is disputing those points. I referred to the contemptuous use of “dross” for those who stayed behind, many of them once working hard in your filthy industries for fairly average pay.

Moreover, there’s some irony for this half-Jewish, Briton of Belarus/Polish heritage that some of those harbouring the strongest contempt for Brexiteers for their bigoted hatred of migrants, reveal similar intense hatreds for those they apparently feel wholly superior to.

Dross isn’t too dissimilar to vermin. Both have echoes of a darker past in how those with self-superiority complexes perceive others they feel to be in some ways inferior to themselves, who they strongly disagree with & hate. Terms such as “dross” seek to debase, if not dehumanise others.

Those like you & SBK may swan around referring to other people as “dross” in your daily lives. Kindly note, I don’t happen to, even when I disagree with them very strongly. - My point made; this aspect of the discussion ended. - Regards.


#27092

It is actually. Dross is what is left over after you’ve extracted the worthwhile part of the shit you’ve just dug out of the ground.

If you’d ever had to work in one of ‘my filthy industries’ you’d be well aware of that.

Vermin are the rats that invade the workspace at night and piss over your workbench and give you mate weil’s disease (3 months in hospital, 12 months off work) after not being 100% meticulous in cleaning his mug (with no facilities) before taking his 10 minute tea break , the only time you were allowed to sit down during the 4.5 hour morning shift.


#27093

point I was making was at the time was nobody knew what had happened and the US came out with the scenario that suited them and Trump.
One thing clear none of this would have happened if Trump had not started this.
I see IRAN is making arrests now?


#27094

Eadwig,

That you even bother making that distinction & deliberately miss my wider point as to the kind of sheer contempt loaded in both terms doesn’t surprise me. I know you have previous form for similar attempted point-scoring with others. So I’ll leave you to it. :wink: - GL.


#27095

Bang on the money there Jack.