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Brexit Wars 3

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#27497

No, it doesn’t matter. It would be the first time the winner of a war returns land because the historical claim is weak. Human history is a history of conflicts, land taking and ethnic cleansing. Only the status quo matters. Does France return the territories to Spain and Germany. Does Russia return anything? Nobody would even ask, but when it’s Israel people suddenly talk about historic claims. People apply different standards when it’s Israel.


#27498

Now some objective historical truth as opposed to emotive speculation masquerading as truth as dominates this BB.

"The Nazi leadership aimed to deceive the German population, the victims, and the outside world regarding their genocidal policy toward Jews. What did ordinary Germans know about the persecution and mass murder of Jews? Despite the public broadcast and publication of general statements about the goal of eliminating “the Jews,” the regime practiced a propaganda of deception by hiding specific details about the “Final Solution,” and press controls prevented Germans from reading statements by Allied and Soviet leaders condemning German crimes.

At the same time, positive stories were fabricated as part of the planned deception. One booklet printed in 1941 glowingly reported that, in occupied Poland, German authorities had put Jews to work, built clean hospitals, set up soup kitchens for Jews, and provided them with newspapers and vocational training. Posters and articles continually reminded the German population not to forget the atrocity stories that Allied propaganda spread about Germans during World War I, such as the false charge that Germans had cut off the hands of Belgian children.

The perpetrators also hid their murderous intentions from many of the victims. Before and after the fact, the Germans used deceptive euphemisms to explain and justify deportations of Jews from their homes to ghettos or transit camps, and from the ghettos and camps to the gas chambers at Auschwitz and other killing centers. German officials stamped “evacuated,” a word with neutral connotations, on the passports of Jews deported from the Germany and Austria to the “model” ghetto at Theresienstadt, near Prague, or to ghettos in the East. German bureaucrats characterized deportations from the ghettos as “resettlements,” though such “resettlement” usually ended in death."


#27499

You are. Otherwise you wouldn’t talk about it. You would just not care as you don’t care about when it’s not Israel.


#27500

Utter naivety. You are condemning the German people of the time as being gullible fools.

Only the Germans living in rural isolation would not have known that Jews and others were being killed. As said repeatedly before there were numerous Concentration camps right next to centres of population, 100,000s of German soldiers and police involved with them. There are plenty of newsreels of the time showing jeering crowds as Jews were being loaded onto trucks. The core of all Hitler’s rantings and writings was the destruction of the Jews. It may have suited the average German - not least for their own safety - to turn a blind eye to what was going on. Besides, during 1939 - 1945 they were in a total war struggle themselves.

Speaking to younger generation Germans I have known, they said that their parents maintained a quiet guilt and shame about what happened to the Jews (and other minorities). And is is a fact that quite a chunk never repented. As you know it was not just Germans involved in willingly perpetrating the Holocaust but also several other nationalities. Then there were the mass crimes of Stalin in the post war period (and before).

Of course the German bureaucracy was very efficient in hiding the paper trail of its crimes - just in case Germany lost the war. Then they could all claim “It wasn’t me guv”. Germany at the time was a sophisticated nation in terms of communications and education, not a backward peasantry. The idea that the population did not know what was going on a few miles outside their towns is beyond credulity. I can see no good reason for such denial.

IMHO,

SBK


#27501

Well the Soviet Union gave up plenty of previously conquered countries and we gave up an entire Empire.

IMHO,

SBK


#27502

SBK,

You appear to have little understanding of those times, not least the degree to which all German media & news was strictly controlled by the Nazis.

Let’s get some perspective that exposes you & others here, who frankly at times act like a mob claiming their assumptions to be the only truth.

On the one hand, Brexit is assumed without question to have been an effective propaganda campaign because, as those like you remind others here on an almost daily basis, it played along racist lines & definitely persuaded people to vote Brexit. That’s still no proof that most Brexiteers voted for racist reasons as I’ve explained previously, but of course it suits your biased narrative to continue claiming so.

However, the far more widespread Nazi propaganda in Germany before & during WW2, including sanitising the terrible fate of the Jewish populations, wasn’t in the slightest bit effective, according to you, despite historical evidence pointing to the contrary, because that doesn’t fit yet another of your narratives.

IMO, you & others like you should be thoroughly ashamed for slandering the majority of the WW2 German civilian population as you have. My final comment on this as life is too short. - GL.

Edited typo in “thoroughly”.


#27503

Because I comment on something that means that I’m obsessed with it does it Arsanias and Jack?

What a stupid thing to say.


#27504

No it is you who should be ashamed of yourself for this perverse appeasement.

It is often thought that Hitler invented antisemitism, he did not, he marked the end of it. It was a deep rooted phenomena in the Germanic territories going back centuries (as in England). Hitler caught the tail end of a wave of this culture from the time of Richard Wagner (great music, bad attitudes). Unlike you, I know Germany and have known a good few Germans; they know their true past and the vast majority of them learned the lesson of that history. That is why the country, as a whole, is so liberal when faced with the immigration of today.

Therefore, in my opinion you should join the Labour Party and be expelled and reported to Mossad.

IMHO,

SBK


#27505

Of course racism won the day for the Leave campaign! There’s huge amount of data to say so. It was - and is - a fact out there on the streets of every town and village. I’m surrounded by poisonous xenophobia everywhere I go. You need to get out more.

IMHO,

SBK


#27506

SBK,

You’re either allowing your worst instincts to get the better of you on this (despite your obvious high levels of intelligence & insight on most matters), or you’re losing the plot with your interpretation because you can’t accept someone highlighting your glaring contradictions. Ones that have no intellectual merit.

To claim that I of all people would ever deny the scale of anti-Semitism seems an all too typical below the belt thrust. But worthless to me.

Remind yourself why this particular issue was contested by me. Pete claimed the German “population” was “persuaded” to “agree” to the actual “exterminations”. As you now know, Nazi “extermination camps” were based in difficult to access rural parts well outside Germany, often requiring special permits & travel by railway. Those camps were mostly manned by non-Germans.

The scale of what happened inside those camps had no precedent. Many people even today struggle to imagine why & how such insanity could have happened. I maintain there is no proof of Pete’s claim due to the nature of those times, where these camps were situated & the degree to which the Nazis controlled all information.

To hit back at me as you have is extremely poor form & foul play.

Typo corrected.


#27507

I reminded you that you asked Trisco to change his avatar as you didn’t like his picture of a black male TV character from the 80’s , you’ve now chosen too flag the post ?


#27508

And as I said huge numbers of Jews (etc.) were exterminated in camps within Germany in the most inhuman ways - right next to German population centres. The grander scale of Auschwitz hardly to lessens the crimes of torture, murder and starvation of 100,000s which went on amidst the German population at Belsen, Dachau, Ravensbrick and many other places or the absolute certain fact that the German population as a whole went along with this programme willingly or in fear.

The eastern camps may have been manned by willing or slave non Germans but it was the Germans who were in charge of course.

But just for some sort of “balance”, as all this was going on the allies were firebombing German cities and the war had claimed millions of German lives, invasions fro the east and west were threatened. The Jewish population would have been perceived as being part of the enemy.

IMHO,

SBK


#27509

still waiting for the Russia Report… stinks


#27510

Not sure IF I started this thread some time ago but it was to highlight the use of the tactic of blaming a group / Race ? Religion for all a populations ills but politicians…

I guess like Brexit Voters Germans had different reasons for promoting or ignoring what was happening.

eg BREXIT
Some believed our corrupt media that 72mill Turks and Terrorists would come here
Other may think they would gain . HJ said (wages would rise exponentially) ha ha
A few may actually know and dislike Migrants
Some out and out racists who hate foreigner’s and confused EU with Muslim countries.
Some probably went along with it and dont want to admit they were conned.

All in all a sad reflection on England in particular and our political system and on the whole LEAVE campaign…


#27511

SBK,

I’ve never said the many deaths in Nazi (or any other) “concentration camps” were less significant. Every such death was an obscenity. That’s needless to say from where most of us stand.

We’re talking about the scale of German civilian knowledge of the actual genocidal extermination process, the scale of which was so horrific it’s barely comprehensible to some of us even now. Purely by example using Belsen concentration camp with the said other camps. Quote from link:

“During its existence, approximately 50,000 persons died in the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp complex including Anne Frank and her sister Margot. Both died in the camp in March 1945. Most of the victims were Jews.”


#27512

Pete - This is the same set of people that dropped Leveson Phase 2… to the delight of the largely pro-Tory, Right Wing Media.
Sir Brian Leveson has said he “fundamentally disagrees” with Government claims changes to the media landscape meant it was now unnecessary.
It is small wonder we have such an unregulated Media. It is easily the worst in the world… way worse than the US.

They are corrupt.

It’s also now 8 months since the ECHR received a formalised set of cases/complaints regarding racism (Islamophobia) in this case allegedly showing blatant racism within the Conservative Party; the ECHR are still deciding what to do with that. It took them just a few weeks before they launched their inquiry into the Labour Party’s alleged racism.


#27513

I meant to add that last month, the Tory Party broke their promise to hold an inquiry specifically into the issue of Islamophobia in the Party that they all agreed to during their Leadership campaign… and instead decided to hold an internal inquiry into ‘how the party handles discrimination complaints’.

Clearly, it isn’t the same thing and they are simply dodging the issue.


#27514

JW,

As you mention me, to clarify, though I agree with Arsanias’s general view on Israel, rather than every single point he or anyone makes, I’m disinclined to say anyone’s “obsessed”. However, it’s fair to say that your criticism of Israel seems greater & far keener than for other nations involved in any conflict.

Though I much agree with you that the treatment of Palestinians has been unfair & the scale of Israeli reprisals often too heavy-handed, I’ve never argued against Israel’s right to exist. For if using similar criteria globally, how far back do we want to go & where would it stop?

For eg. I’ve always had a huge interest in Native America culture &, by association, the terrible injustices exacted on them over centuries by European colonists.

USA has been in existence since 1776, a relatively short time compared to many nations. Its existence is entirely due to a massive land-grab enforced by extreme violence & some of the first documented cases of attempted genocide where smaller Native American tribes were wiped out by tactics like being given typhus-infected blankets to spread lethal disease, et al.

If we’re to question any nation’s moral right to exist based on how they acquired their lands, IMO, USA & other nations have even more to answer for. - GL.


#27515

Sure… yet you voted up his post where he only said:
“ You are. Otherwise you wouldn’t talk about it. You would just not care as you don’t care about when it’s not Israel.”

The criteria I used was that Israel’s claim on land is based on a work of fiction from a series of writers.
How many countries that exist today are based on that criteria?

How many times in recent months have I posted about Saudi Arabia, Russia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Turkey… let alone the US ? In fact, on a quick look back I have probably brought up Iraq, Syria and US probably a factor of 20 times more than Israel.

It says a lot about you two that you only mouth off about it when I bring up Israel and then you stream a lot of “whatabout”s.


#27516

He’s a typical Labour anti-semite and, as you would expect, in compete denial about it.