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Brexit Wars 3

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#27517

You live in a fantasy world where 2020 UK is but one step away from 1930’s Germany. You also seem unable to grasp basic concepts when they are explained to you. What I actually said was if you took 2 to 3 million immigrants out of the current UK workforce wages would be much higher. I did not say Brexit would make them higher because 1) I didn’t vote for Brexit to stop immigration and 2) Immigration won’t fall much anyway.

You are the worst kind of self-loathing fool. Despite your ridiculous claims that we are a laughing stock I think most of Europe’s political elite are looking at us with envy because we now have one of the most stable governments of all. They can only dream of that.


#27518

Not quite. The Soviet Union was a federation and the members decided to divorce. No Russians were expelled from where they lived. Whole Siberia was conquered and it’s not returned to the natives. Neither is the Oblast Kaliningrad or the pieces of Poland they carved out. The crucial point is: nobody asks for it or argues that what was taken under whatever unlawful conditions decades ago has to be returned. That blame is exclusive to Israel. The Crimea annexation will be long forgotten when people still blame Israel.

In case of palestinians it’s even less substantiated, because they never had a state. It was the Ottoman Empire. So, return Palestine to Turkey? Or to Egypt and Syria? It leads nowhere. People live where they live. Palestinians can opt for another 100 years of war, but it will be wasted time.

Or Tibet anyone? Funny enough often the same people criticise Israel and defend China.


#27519

JW,

Firstly, unlike some who show tendencies to gang-up against those disagreed with, there’s no side-taking here. I also don’t think Arsanias has those tendencies. For eg., when it comes to animal welfare & rights, your posts are by far the closest to the ethical stance I personally hold & invariably support.

However, I agreed with Arsanias that you seem noticeably keener on criticising Israel than many other nations, hence those tick-ups. As is your right of course.

Frankly, I don’t recognise your claims to have criticised nations like “Russia, Iraq, Iran, Syria” nearly as often as Israel. But if I’m mistaken on that, you have my apologies.

If we go further back in history, there’s worse. The Conquistadors butchered, pillaged & raped their way across what is now South & Central America. They were largely empowered by the Papacy. The Pope of the time gave them a supposedly (absurd) God-sanctioned right to destroy all heathen cultures. Which they did.

When Franciscan Monks tried to stop the butchery & rapes of native women & children, which they reported to the King of Spain, they were met with unyielding Conquistador attitudes such as that for them raping heathens wasn’t a crime. The believed it’d be different only if they were Christians.

The Aztec, Inca, Mayan & other civilisations were largely wiped out from ridiculous religious justifications stemming directly from the same “works of fiction”. - GL.


#27520

Yes. I know it means jumping over your own shadow to realize that it’s really like that. All those posts are proof to my point. Ask yourself why you even think you have to comment on Israel. Why not the Moroccan occupation of West Sahara? Israel is treated differently.


#27521

Anti-Semitism was not particlarly more rootet in Germany than anywhere else. It still exists throughout the Muslim World, Eastern Europe and Russia.


#27522

Many were. Political education was not the same as today - if it is any better today.

Is there a slave trading memorial in London? Or one to remember massacres in the colonies? What would happen if someone tried to erect one? Is the British Empire not still mostly regarded as a great achievement and something to be proud of? When will that change?

The public shared consciousness in Germany today does not deny any part of the guilt and that is states policy. I dare say Germany is very much alone in the world with that. What’s the french view today on Algeria or Indochina? Any at all? And their collaboration with Germany? They needed decades to admit that “some” french authorities cooperated with the SS and police was assisting in deportation. They even deported Jews from areas that were not under german occupation.

…and they make laws that forbid to talk about it. I don’t know if anybody in Ukraine nowadays talks about the 1st Galician SS division.

…and they still worship Stalin.

I don’t think that’s a valid point. There was no free radio or newspaper. Those things were personal experience or mouth propaganda, which was deadly dangerous.

Some people listened to BBC, which was very dangerous too. But when did the BBC report about concentration camps? Not before 1943 probably. Churchill was not overly enthusiastic to believe in the reports he received and even less inclined to make it public.

They knew rumours and some or perhaps many knew more, but you behave differently in a dictatorship. You don’t talk openly. You have to guess what the person you are talking to is truly thinking and then you could carefully make remarks.


#27523

Arsanias,

True indeed. In fact, prior to the avoidable repercussions, bigoted resentments & scapegoatism issuing as a direct consequence of WWI - not least due to parts of the extremely punitive Versailles Treaty’s reparation demands made on Germany - which in turn led to the lamentable rise of quite insane Nazi ideologists, Germany was in fact a preferred destination for many Jewish people, relatively speaking. At least compared to most parts of Eastern Europe. Pre-Hitler Germany was seen as fairly moderate.

As you note, Jewish citizens had suffered many murderous pogroms throughout nations like Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, et al, long before anti-Semitism in Germany ever took hold on the scale it did. Especially in Russia & Ukraine. This obscenity goes back many centuries. Ditto for certain other parts of the world. - GL. - Edited word & less factual point.


#27524

Have you any examples of Europe’s political elite looking at us with envy???
Really interested in this like I was when I asked many times
For
Any Benefits to leaving the EU and any opportunities you can name??


#27525

Cant be bothered to look back but one of you Brexiters said “wages would rise exponentially”

You live in a fantasy world where 2020 UK is but one step away from 1930’s Germany.

what I said was to highlight the use of the tactic of blaming a group / Race ? Religion for all a populations ills
all obvious when you look back at LEAVE posters

image


#27526

arsanias - good afternoon

First of all a declaration of interest. As I’ve stated previously, I support both the state of Israel and the Jewish people (despite not being Jewish - or knowingly having any Jewish ancestors ).

The two state plan as has been said,is very unlikely to ever happen. Firstly, the Palestinians have consistently rejected it . The reason being, I assume, because their aim is a one state solution solely for themselves. Iran, and it’s proxies Hammas and Hezbollah are committed to the destruction of Israel and the consequent killing as many Jews as possible. The premise of the plan is that Israel will be willing to ‘give up land for peace’. If Iran and proxies are certain to continue the war, why would Israel give up any land?

Secondly, the issue of the capital of each country will be impossible to resolve. Both Israel and the Palestinians see Jerusalem as ‘their’ capital. Since the 1967 war, Israel has been consistent by building what is called ‘facts on the ground’ by increasing the Jewish population in East Jerusalem (the Palestinian bit). The Jewish population now numbers close to 215,000 and there is no way these (and wider Jewish people), would accept East Jerusalem being the Palestinian capital.

Comment has been made of Israel’s ‘right’ to the land and in a wider context about the acquisition of territory by means of war. The bottom line is that the Palestinian land has become part of Israel as a result of the arabs losing twice (1948 and 1967) when trying to obliterate Israel.
For good or ill, the only way for the Palestinians to recover the lost territory is to fight for it and win - if it can.
JAR


#27527

Game is just beginning looks like BOJO has to keep fishing rights rather than finance…

The fishing industry is valued at about 169 times less than financial services and official data shows it employs just 8,000 people compared to more than a million in finance.


#27528

You’ve been wrong about absolutely everything so far Pete. You will be wrong about this as well.


#27529

still waiting ?

Have you any examples of Europe’s political elite looking at us with envy???
Really interested in this like I was when I asked many times
For
Any Benefits to leaving the EU and any opportunities you can name??


#27530

So the fake Labour supporter is accusing me of being a Labour supporter!
Yeah… that’s something a real Labour supporter would do isn’t it?

I’ve never voted for Labour in my life as I’ve told you before… but if I had… I’d have no problems in saying so.


#27531

You mean the B of E mulling rate cuts after the worst economic performance in 7 years?

From your own link.


#27532

No clue what that means.

“All those posts”… I replied to someone mentioning the 2-state solution and there weren’t many posts from me on the subject.

If you look back and see how many posts I have made criticising US foreign policy or Saudi Arabian atrocities then you’ll see why that is such a ridiculous thing to say.

This is a Discussion board and if I want to post about Israel or any other country then I will and neither you or others will stop me doing so.


#27533

While the ECB also mull over rate cuts, you mean? What is their reasoning?

In fact, looking at the data they are more likely to have a rate cut than the BoE.


#27534

except they saw slave workers in their own communities everyday. Anyone who thinks the general German population didn’t know what was going on is deluding themselves. Some of the camps were so bad that the local burgers complained of the smell wafting over their towns when the wind was in the wrong direction.

If you read contemporary accounts from the time, by Germans or allied soldiers, it is totally obvious that what was going on was well know.

So far as the murder of the Jewish population (relatively small in Germany) Goebbels himself purposely made the same ‘mistake’ in several speeches when he talked about the ‘exterminati… errr, eradication’ of the jews. It always brought a big laugh.

Some German officers and their men who spent almost all their time on various fronts maintain they never knew what was going on behind the lines. This was a view supported and propagated by the trash American historian Stephen E. Ambrose (Band of Brothers, D-Day, Pegasus Bridge et al) but the more research one does the more blinkered you realise his view became as he befriended German interviewees who became his firm friends in post war years (E.g Hans Von Luck).

Lastly, Hitler actually included in his orders for Barbarossa that it must be a ‘war of extermination’ an order that was passed down to every individual soldier and directly resulted in the deaths of unknown millions of Russian prisoners.

There is no question in my mind that the every day citizen of the Reich, civilian and military, were well aware of what was going on in broad terms. Once you have accepted that fact, you can’t possibly vote along with those advocating far right views without examining your conscience because history tells us exactly how it can snowball into millions of ‘decent, ordinary people’ turning a blind eye to hideous atrocities.


#27535

Huw thinks the US can nuke Iran and the fallout wont kill their own allies in neighbouring countries or close the Straits of Hormuz, so JAR is probably of the same small minded opinion.

I bet neither of them could pick out Iran on a map. Typical Americans.


#27536

Even they knew they had slave workers to help work the land, many of whom were starved, raped and tortured by their masters. Perhaps they were told that they were refugees or prisoners of war initially, but what was to stop them simply asking later?

Rural isolation was no excuse.