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Brexit Wars 3

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#28201

Interesting discussion on Radio 4 (programme started 9am, ostensibly about Dresden, comments towards the end of the programme) with regard to the paradoxical internationalisation of nationalism that is designed to ‘brand cleanse’ and normalise extreme far-right ideology, including in Germany, but in many other places across the continent and the globe.

Contributors state this is happening on a scale we couldn’t have previously imagined involving all sorts of trans-national players, including The Kremlin’s influence on elections in other countries, resulting in massive trans-national toxic sub-cultures using tech-savvy to spread their extreme ideology using algorithmic targeting across socal media to recruit support and shift the socio-political backdrop.

The main point I take from it is they state that such movements don’t just happen without those who believe it helps them attain power, or weaken perceived enemies or competition, purposely and systematically stoking the more ugly side of human nature.

… followed by a programme that starts with the statement that ‘racism is being expressed in public more openly today than at any time I can recall’.

A direct result of the above forces, I believe, that also resulted in swinging the Brexit vote.


#28202

That may be true for the East and West coast lines but not for the cross country and commuter ones which are disastrous in every respect and run by utterly rubbish companies. Typically you have 2 carriage diesels, to save money, rather than 3 and they just pack in travellers like sardines.

I believe that there are plans to extend some platforms and this is very costly - though I fail to see why: they are just cement and bricks. A gang of Victorians with spades could have knocked one up in a fortnight. The Chinese can build a 2000 bed hospital in 10 days, etc.

As you say, east west connectivity is a far way to spend HS2 money. Not that I care as all the journeys I want to take are south into the EU. Or to Scotland if it gets independence.

IMHO,

SBK


#28203

That was then. This now: Scotland’s cities are multicultural and tolerant. The Protestant/Catholic thing is confined to the rough end of Glasgow which is generally a very progressive multicultural city.

I lived in Scotland for two years and not once did I experience or hear of “Hatred for the English”. Even for me.

Usual ignorant rubbish from fynne.

IMHO,

SBK


#28204

Well just answer this one question. How can Poland, a state that no longer existed, be in denial about involvement in the holocaust?

I conflated what was said in the two articles you linked. Having an ad-blocker on it was difficult enough to read them once without going back to distinguish exactly what was said in which.

In percentage of population terms USSR was nowhere near the greatest sufferer. I believe Serbia was, but it is hard to pin down the figures given so many records were destroyed and in some countries were never that great to begin with. Or, records have never been released, as is the case with Russia.

No, lets not chase down that red herring. Already too much re-writing of history in order to criticise the current government it seems to me. That isn’t the way to stand up to them. Criticise them by all means, but don’t try and do it through changing the facts about WWII, keep it separate.

Happily, being in the EU, they will be restrained from how far they can go (Hungary too which is at least as worrying), because they wont want to risk their membership.

One very good reason, as it has always been, for the EU to stand together and widen its membership (and democratic standards for membership) as no country would be stupid enough to do anything to risk weakening such a force for peace on the continet that spawned the two most horrific conflicts in history (arguably - see Taiping Rebellion, again, no way to be sure of the figures).

Oh, except Britain, of course and the few politicians who would risk anything to carve out their own power base.


#28205

Thing HJ fynne dont want to admit is … In England there are more Racists its a bigger country and they are organised eg EDL BRITAIN FIRST and they are all encouraged and used by the likes of Farage.
They all support Brexit and the Tories…

So you get PPL who read their social media feeds and the Tabloids saying things like the EU is responsible for terrorism.
eg they’ve been conned and fears exploited… sad but true…

image


#28206

Well just answer this one question. How can Poland, a state that no longer existed, be in denial about involvement in the holocaust?

Eadwig, you are making yourself appear ridiculous. No-one is saying that that was a Polish government during WW2 but there certainly were Polish people, some of whom were complicit or perpetrators of anti-semitic crimes.

As for Poland painting itself as a victim, I have read that nowhere except in your “conflation”. Perhaps you are guilty of trying to over-argue your point. No-one is saying that Poland did not suffer greatly in the war.

In the confusion of war there has always been some inexactitude about the numbers who died. The estimates of Russian casualties seem to be around 26 million which is far more than those lost in Poland even if not in percentage terms. I am sure that Russian mothers grieved as much as Polish mothers.

I have not tried to change the facts about WW2. What is very clear is that for its own nationalist agenda that the Law and Justice party has tried to squash debate about Polish peoples’ complicity in acts of anti-semitism. It is hardly an honourable model of transparent debate. I did provide details of how the Law and Justice party had tried to do this and I asked whether you supported them in doing this. You did’nt answer. Perhaps this speaks volumes about your own resistance to an open debate about these things?

Frog in a tree


#28207

The irony is that these cabbages will be cut and processed by Eastern European labour. I’ll bet that you’ll not find many local English out in the muddy fields at 6 am these days.

IMHO,

SBK


#28208

There are racists in ALL countries … intolerance and bigotry takes many forms.
The world is becoming a smaller place with greater movement and more people.
… but to say “England is more racist” is far too simplistic.

But buns spent two years in Scotland so is clearly an expert on the subject :roll_eyes:


#28209

this is what I said…

Thing HJ fynne dont want to admit is … In England there are more Racists its a bigger country and they are organised eg EDL BRITAIN FIRST and they are all encouraged and used by the likes of Farage.
They all support Brexit and the Tories…


#28210

Another mindless comment from fynne.

I’ve spent time in many countries - including Greece - fynne. There is racism in all countries I have found but in some it is a small issue confined to the lowest orders, in others it is large - such as in the USA and Israel. Its a tiny thing in Scotland but now large in England again. That is why Brexit needs to be strangled to death, stamped into the dirt and flushed down the sewer from whence it came.

IMHO,

SBK


#28211

Hi Fiat,

Both you & Eadwig make a number of valid points. Tellingly enough, President Obama soon apologised for his gaffe regarding “Polish death camps”. As mentioned before, “Nazi death camps in then-occupied Poland”, would’ve avoided any misunderstanding or offence.

I also agree with you that all such debates, & not just about anti-Semitism, shouldn’t be stifled in any nations. In that I include related matters from wider afield, including in nations like Japan where there’s also been a palpable reluctance to confront their horrendous crimes during WW2. Also Turkey’s recent denials regarding their attempted genocide of Armenians in WW1.

As we agree, some of these outrages could’ve happened in any number of nations if the circumstances had been the same. Hence the importance of never forgetting & certainly never denying.

I’ll take opportunity to correct a comment of mine from 3 days ago. - When acknowledging that anti-Semitism was growing in Poland prior to, during &, for a short while, after WW2, I previously said 1 in 10 Warsaw citizens were of Jewish origin. That’s inaccurate. Reportedly, about 1 in 10 across all of Poland were Jewish, with about 1/3rd in Warsaw itself. There’s ample evidence that the sheer size of the Jewish population was deeply resented by some Polish politicians & a significant number of Polish citizens. But as we say, that would’ve applied in any number of nations.

Decent recent article below on Poland’s past record regarding anti-Semitism. Balanced & objective. - Regards.


#28212

All the Brexit supporters I know are racists to one degree or another, even though some would deny it (they talk in terms of a numbers game but what they really mean is they want less dark people).

On Friday evening Lady Buns was invited to dinner by people connected to her business. The conversation was dominated by “Sex addict Pakis” and “Homos being a threat to children” (in the light of the Schofield coming out). In the end she had to say that the conversation was stressing her out to quell it. She being woke of course.

Brexit has given licence for such opinions to thrive and to be shouted rather than whispered.

IMHO,

SBK


#28213

Hi Jack,

The link to the article published by The Atlantic is much appreciated. It articulates many of the same points that I have been trying to make, maybe somewhat less effectively.

I would be interested to hear Eadwig’s view of this article.

I also agree with the parallels you draw between what is happening in Poland with what has happened in Japan and Turkey. We cannot forget also that the persecution and genocide of the native Americans has taken very many years for the US to come to terms with and perhaps even not yet. The UK also has difficulties in coming to terms with the truth of its involvement in the slave trade and in regard to the miseries and death it wrought across its vast empire. This is why it is so important that we condemn not the Polish people but their current government’s attempts to minimise the complicity of some of its citizens in anti-semitic acts.

Cheers,

Frog in a tree


#28214

But now is now and Netanyahu. Regarding racism in Israel, I was not meaning anti - Palestinian prejudice BTW…

IMHO,

SBK


#28215

just to take this further
England is not a racist country many of my old buddies are really nice people and would help anyone. yet come out with "these migrants ect "
Where we have the problem is Tabloids and with untold £mills on facebook posts and RW politicians.
They created bigotry and fear with obvious lies.
giving us a Brexit where no one can say a single benefit or why they voted for it…

Just seen Boycott online saying WE WON THE WAR what country other than England would come out with that …
He was born in 1940 so didnt do much fighting…


#28216

Boycott? Probably a case of dementia due to too many knocks to the head?

Frog


#28217

He had a good fight with his girlfriend, he seemed to win that one as he left her with black eyes and bruises. Still… we can overlook a bit of bullying and assault on women in the UK… they were probably asking for it anyway.


#28218

I see Liar Johnson is talking BS again. I don’t think he’ll handle HS2 well or this stupid bridge to Ireland with his track record:

IMHO,

SBK


#28219

Huw, if the authors are going to include all the cases of racism from the large migrations of the 19th century then you might be right.
In modern times, and certainly in my experience of growing up usually around Springburn (which is one of the shittier parts of Glasgow) then there are way less attacks and abuse based on racism than in England. That doesn’t mean you aren’t going to get knifed or robbed if you venture into the wrong places… but in England many different ethnic groups who’ve made homes here are targeted by organisations like the EDL, BNP and more generally the supporters of far-right politics.
That is not something that is anything like on the same scale in Scotland.

If you don’t see that then you are deliberately ignoring it… or simply only venture out in your daily commute between your leafy borough and the City each day.


#28220

I don’t… which is why I am able to comment… unlike you who knows zip and has become a Greek resident made a lot easier by the UK being part of the EU… something you’ve selfishly denied to younger generations.