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Brexit Wars 3

lse:hsba
lse:lloy
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#28221

yes maybe a shame he is shown online but he is just the kind of hero they want to listen to IF the message is what they want to hear…


#28222

Is your name Jack by any chance because that is what you know about England.

3 million EU citizens applying to stay in a hostile, bigoted country with an “extreme far right” government and with no economic hope or future outside the EU. Mind boggling isn’t it…


#28223

Boycott is an 80 year old gammon. Problem soon to be solved.

Grim%20Reaper

IMHO,

SBK


#28224

You misunderstood me. The attempt to prohibit by law to make any connection between Nazi crime and Poland was in reaction to Jan T. Gross

It was a law (lex gross) made 2006 and cancelled by the High Court in 2008.

Later he faced charges again:

"On 15 October 2015, Polish prosecutors opened a libel probe against Gross. The office was acting under a paragraph of the criminal code that “provides that any person who publicly insults the Polish nation is punishable by up to three years in prison.” Polish prosecutors had previously examined Gross’s 2008 book Fear and the 2011 book Golden Harvest, but not closed those cases after finding no evidence of a crime.[28][24] In 2016, the Simon Wiesenthal Center said the decision to continue the investigation against Gross was alarming, bearing “all the hallmarks of a political witch-hunt,” and a “form of alienating minorities and people who were victimized.”

Attacks on the Polish people like your own will only help such a government become established (which it now has as the biggest party) and lasting. Lies about history rarely lead to anything positive. I wonder how many votes this generalised external attack, apparently placing Nazi atrocities at the feet of the Polish people, added to the total for this nationalistic party in recent elections?

I don’t think I attacked anyone. If I write something that is not historically true, I’m open for discussion.


#28225

Obviously they are settled here and hope that the majority of British who are Remainers will turn back the racist, Nazi tide in time and get Little England back to being a normal country within the EU. Which we will.

IMHO,

SBK


#28226

Alternatively, the “racist nazi tide” is all in your sad little minds and they see the country for what it is ie a pleasant, liberal, tolerant place of opportunity that welcomes outsiders like them.


#28227

…and on the other hand we have a prospective deportation of a planeload of people of Jamaican origin to Jamaica due to criminal convictions. Some of these have been resident in the UK since early childhood and have little or no connection with Jamaica and hardly present a serious risk to the UK.

I don’t think they have been given fair treatment and the right of appeal. What right has the UK got to dump these people on Jamaica?

It looks like the same kind of rough justice as we saw in the Windrush cases.

Frog in a tree


#28228

British people “were not consulted” about immigration levels.
To which the answer is: oh yes you damn well were. Every time you insisted on a properly staffed NHS, on social care that was halfway decent, on a service economy that worked, on affordable decorators, on your Tesco and Amazon deliveries arriving on time.

PS have you thought of any Positive benefits for the UK re Brexit ??
AND why did you vote for it??


#28229

You must be living in a different country! Of course, you live in Schmuckinghamshire, a dormitory county and work in civilized London. You need to get out more and cure your Little Englander fantasy of muffins and honey for tea.

IMHO,

SBK


#28230

Manchester Rochdale Sheffield North Yorkshire Derbyshire York…

Brexit Britain
Wonder what Newspapers these PPL read ??


#28231

6 million is the number that I was always told. Who said it was 12? Not that it matters much, but to double the number is questionable and has perhaps its own motivation. I just checked yadvashem.org and they say the following:

“There is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed in the Shoah. The figure commonly used is six million quoted by Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official. Most research confirms that the number of victims was between five and six million. Early calculations range from 5.1 million (the Holocaust researcher Raul Hilberg) to 5.95 million (the demographer Jacob Leschinsky). More recent research, by Israel Gutman and Robert Rozett in Yad Vashem’s Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, estimates the Jewish losses at 5.59-5.86 million, and a study headed by Wolfgang Benz presents a range from 5.29 million to 6 million. The main sources for these statistics are comparisons of prewar censuses with postwar censuses and population estimates, as well as contemporary documentation, such as the daily reports of the killing units, collections of deportation lists and others.”

Source

I see no reason not to believe them.

Well, there were collaborators and there were people that didn’t strictly collaborate, but took personal advantage. That’s a historical fact. How many? That should be researched, which can only happen if that part of the past is allowed to talk about. I would turn your argument around and say that painting over the historical facts does the victims no favour, because it moves the discussion on the field of politics and ideology.

I remember the harsh critics from Poland (mostly PIS) as a reaction to that movie, because there was an antisemitic member of the underground army (Armia Krajowa). There was another one that helped the Jewish guy in the movie, but polish media only focused on the anti-semitic one. The historical truth is that both types existed. btw, it’s on Netflix. The polish narrative was that “germans are not allowed to point at such things, because they were the aggressor”. Well, that mixes ideology with history. Not good.

In a second note I would say that Poland should get away from the identity of the all-time-victim. Poland was many times the victim, no doubt, but there were also other occasions as the Polish-Ukrainian war or the anticemitic campaign of 1967. Poland tended to develop a exuberant nationalism at those times and today’s government worries me too. That victim identity as the reason of state is not helpful, because it stands in the way of being a self-confident nation without toxic nationalism.

But actually I think regular people are already much further. Last week I spent in Poland in Silesia and it was a very relaxed week with a polish tour guide. The german past is becoming more visible. No more removing of graveyards or inventing a polish past for the area (the tale of the reconquest). I even saw a renovated WW1 memorial with names of dead soldiers. Not that I care much about WW1, but it was unthinkable before 1990 and I didn’t expect it. It’s good to see that they relax and history becomes less of an ideological minefield. At some point the same will happen with a new look at crime against Jews. They can do that without changing anything in the big picture or losing respect for polish suffering.

I think a sober look at how things were is better than trying to control what people are allowed to believe.


#28232

Hi Arsanias,

The problem with Jan T. Gross is how he puts things with his wider generalisations to fit certain narratives. To quote:

In an essay published in 2015 in the German Die Welt newspaper, Gross wrote that during World War 2, “Poles killed more Jews than Germans”.[23] In 2016, Gross said that “Poles killed a maximum 30,000 Germans and between 100,000 and 200,000 Jews.”[24] Polish Foreign Ministry spokesman Marcin Wojciechowsk] described Gross’s statement as “historically untrue, harmful and insulting to Poland.” - End quote.

Firstly, Gross assumes he knows how many Germans were killed by Poles throughout WW2, which would be difficult to ascertain accurately as Polish forces were involved in a number of major battles. He also generalises about Polish people. Assuming most of the deaths of Jewish citizens occurred in death camps, how many Poles were involved from a population of approximately 35 million in 1939? Even if we add the number of Poles partaking in pogroms.

Then there’s a wider context. One reason why Poland had so many Jewish citizens prior to WW2 was because it was considered a relatively benign nation for Jews. Reportedly, anti-Semitism was much more rife across the Ukraine, Belarus, other parts of Europe &, not least, in all the Baltic States where Jewish people were regularly slaughtered in the streets, especially from 1939 onwards.

No-one would deny Poland had some serious issues with anti-Semitism among parts of its population. But, without excusing anything, it’s evident that some other European nations behaved far more brutally. - Regards.


#28233

Perhaps you focus too much on the “state”. The GDR never took responsibility for Nazi crime, because it defined itself as a communist state and therefore per se detached from what happened before 1945. According to propaganda the Nazis all moved to West Germany.

Better look at what people did.


#28234

I see that you (and Jack) are up to your usual misdirections and obfuscation.
That’s 3 million EU citizens who have based their homes in the UK and want to remain in the UK.
No connection at all with the earlier comments on proportions of racism in Scotland vs England.

“ with an “extreme far right” government”
… never said that. Liars.

“ with no economic hope or future outside the EU.”
… never said that. Liars.


#28235

Perhaps he was tempted to be more provocative in a context were these things simply were not not researched, not spoken about and in contrast to the official opinion.


#28236

FIAT - hi

Glad to see you still remember me - with fondness I hope!

Had a few minutes to spare so I thought I’d look in to cheer myself up reading the miserable posts on BW3. Must say it made me feel good to see you all wound up so much!

Re the above quote - as I’ve clearly posted previously (but you conveniently ignore or more likely prejudicially forget).

I hate Soros because he is a foreign billionaire who funded the Remain campaign to overturn the democratic referendum vote of the UK electorate (which fortunately failed miserably!). The fact that he happens to be Jewish seems to be an issue with you and JW - certainly not with me. I don’t care about the ethnicity of the treacherous bloke!
Also I’ve clearly stated that I support both Jews and the state of Israel. Not sure how this shows a ‘subtle manifestation’ of antisemitism! Seems blatantly ‘prosemitism’ to me m8.

If your specious argument is taken at face value (that criticism of Soros is ‘ipso facto’ antisemitism), does that mean ANY criticism of ANYONE ‘black’ (your description) makes one a racist?, muslim – an islamophobe?, gypsy – a romophobe? or migrant Polish workers – an English nationalist?

Still it must be difficult for you and the other’ liberal wokies’ whose beliefs have taken such a battering over the past 4 years.

  1. the unexpected referendum result in 2016,
  2. the unwanted success of the Brexit Party in the European elections
  3. The resignation of the ‘dodgy umpire’ John Bercow – the ‘organ grinder’ of the remainers in Parliament last October. Whatever happened to him?
  4. The sinking without trace of the (so-called) ‘Peoples Vote’ to overturn Brexit.
  5. The overwhelming election majority of the Tories that has finally achieved Brexit
  6. The finding of innocence of my mate Donald in his impeachment ‘trial’ meaning he hasn’t been removed and is now well placed to win a second term this November
  7. The broadcasting mouthpiece of you ‘liberal wokies’ (the BBC) now clearly on the back foot with journalists being sacked, the non-payment of the license fee certain to be decriminalised and the very high prospect of BBC users being asked to subscribe only to the bits they want to watch / hear. I might pay for the sport and wildlife programmes but not the left-wing news and current affairs, drama, comedy and politics - you lot can pay for these.

So do carry on with your prejudicial postings m8 . It gives you the hope of a chimera - and people like me a good laugh.

Happy Brexit.
JAR


#28237

Arsanias,

Probably so. But I can see why members of Poland’s government reacted as they did. Gross’s ballpark figure of between 100,000 to 200,000 Jewish people killed by Poles during WW2 tells me he really has little idea of the accurate figures. But then he seems 100% sure that Poles killed no more than 30,000 Germans over the same period. It’s bound to rile Poland, as it would any other nation who suffered the horrendous losses Poland did.

Gross ought to have stated how many Poles from a WW2 population of approximately 35 million he thinks were involved in these killings of Jewish citizens to give it some context & balance. Then Poland might have responded far less defensively & been more open to honest debate, which of course we’d all welcome. - GL.


#28240

A little behind the times maybe ??

… I, much to my later regret married a Scottish woman.
… inheriting a very bigoted number of Scottish in-laws.
… I was also unfortunate enough to have to work with a large number of equally bigoted Scottish people.
… they would still blame England for all their woes even after being given their independence!

… note the “Jamaican” and criminal part please.

I believe they have all spent time in prison for dealing class A drugs as a minimum… nice people eh!
… Hopefully they can no longer apply to the EU courts
… an advantage of brexit maybe?

… as for this whole “nazi” dialogue … seriously get a life

:blush:


#28241

The European Court of Human Rights is NOT part of the EU ffs!!!

Thick, thick and thicker.

IMHO,

SBK


#28242

But these people are needed. Without them Cameron, Johnson, etc., might not have been able to score their gear. Historical fact.

IMHO,

SBK