Brexit Wars 3




… ah mixed it up with the CJEU … no matter :blush:


Can you not read fynne??? The ECHR is NOT an organization of the EU. It was Churchill’s idea to prevent the rise of Nazism in Europe. He failed because here we are in Brexit Britain.




So it does not matter that you have no idea what you are talking about? More proof that you, Jar and Jarse and other dregs did not have a clue what you were voting for in 2016.




ever wonder what EU migrants think of us…

Most came here because they were headhunted and offered jobs maybe a bit more money than home countries.
Now a lot want to stay why ?? Kids at school, made friends, Mortgages commitments, cost of moving back etc…
Still needed by their employers …

Now we have anti Migrant hate filled media and Politicians.
Cant think they are impressed by (got to be said ) England…


yes thicko


Red Salmon, red tape. Just one example of forthcoming daftness.




Looks like the racism isn’t confined to the UK, @petethenovice . What is the excuse in Italy? Maybe the Italians read the Mail, as well.


nm … :blush:


It seems like you had a problem with Scots Fynne. I guess your ex dumped you?

As for the discussions on here about WW2, you are welcome to contribute but you really don’t have the ability.




got me there Trisco there are nuts in other countries…


Do you ever think for more than 2 seconds before you write that garbage? That paragraph alone is wrong in so many ways, embarrassing and a demonstration of a lack of understanding of democratic principles.


Did he say that figure first? I find sources that the number was published by Jan Grabowski, professor in Toronto and co-funder of the Polish Center for Holocaust Research in his book Hunt for the Jews: Betrayal and Murder in German-Occupied Poland

But reading the Wikipedia article, he didn’t literally mean “killed by Poles”. He refers to “direct or indirect responsibility” for instance by denunciation of hidden Jews and describes a more complex situation of pressure and forced collaboration.

The difficulty with a thesis like that is that it’s almost impossible to discuss it in public without waking all sorts of twisting, misinterpretation, ideological noise etc.

I don’t even know what the worth of such arithmetic would be.

My conclusion is different. The suffering was so horrendous that researching complicity in crimes against Jews won’t change the general picture. It’s inevitable for a researcher who is looking at how the occupation was done and how it affected the life of Poles. The german Wikipedia page about Grabowski mentions a Włodzimierz Leś, who was a police man that denounced Jews and was later shot by the resistance. A little more googling finds that site: The Ulma Family museum of Poles saving Jews in WW2. It mentions the same Włodzimierz Leś.



It seems wholly academic who said it first. That Gross published it as fact is in your Jan T Gross link & surely reflects that he totally agrees with it.

As for what was literally meant: so it’s a bit like Obama who didn’t “literally" mean “Polish death camps”. But at least Obama had the decency to apologise for his gaffe. IMO, these influential people have huge responsibility in how they disseminate historical information that’ll be read by myriads of others. It’s not pub talk.

IMO, it seems a subjective dig at Poland’s overall record compared to said speculations about how many Jewish people were killed by Poles. It’s obviously worth it for him to make such arithmetical assumptions, regardless of whether they’re factual or unfounded. If the latter, then little more than aspersions. I quoted his claim that a “maximum 30,000 Germans” were killed by Poles. That exposes his bias.

How does anyone know how many Germans were killed by Polish forces in various combat zones throughout WW2? It reduces history to a level of amateurish guesswork mostly to score political & moral points. No wonder Poland reacted as it did. - Regards.


In and around Sheffield and Leeds (and probably elsewhere) Northern Rail very often run single carriage DMUs as commuter trains. Having said that, I was remember being amazed by them when I first moved to Sheffield which was while B.R. was still in charge and the Tories had just privatised public transport (except in London) and these commuter trains were usually subsidised by the local councils.

Whether they had just been introduced then or not I don’t now. They are pretty pathetic though, especially as many local stations, and one major station, were closed in the Sheffield area leaving many ‘ghost stations’ that are no longer used.

Many of the areas they would have once served ended up served by the Sheffield ‘Supertram’, which is in fact a light rail system running on B.R. gauge (4’ 81/2") track with the obvious intention of later enlragement to use local existing rail infrastructure. This never happened, and in many places the trams run on new tracks built alongside existing rail lines.

This was supposedly due to the insurmountable safety problems arising from attempting to integrate signalling, supposedly, which sounds like an excuse for two organisations protecting their territory to me. It does mean Sheffield trams can run on time rather than being held up for ever-delayed trains from various other providers.

Yes, it seems ridiculous. However, think of a platform you know well and then extend it 100 yards at either end. I bet you that in most cases there is no room. In fact, almost certainly you’ll be into a situation where the tracks being served by those platforms, including points (junctions) would have to be moved and re-laid. Also, very likely a re-design and re-build of any overhead electrification stanchions also.

How we have got so very bad at even smallish infrastructure projects in this country I do not know. Before work even starts there would likely be several rounds of planning permission consultations followed by a 5 year long public enquiry costing millions.

What i never said in my previous post, which perhaps I should havemade clear, is that the East-West roads and railways that currently exist are massively over-used, especially from Leeds going westwards with the M62 pretty much at capacity and the two other passes over the Pennines completely inappropriate and anyway channel into one bottleneck near Glossop which reduces, E.g. a 30-40 mile trip from West Sheffield to Manchester Airport typically taking 90 minutes, and the train isn’t any better when you include travel time to the station - spot the obvious short cut that could be built…

Other trips on the ‘Trans-Pennine “Express”’ are equally slow and annoyingly bad.

Where infrastructure is modernised and improved business follows. Spending HS2 money along the lines I suggest would show a real intent on the part of the government and actually potentially develop an urban hinterland that could compete on a global scale (with the all important international airports), doubling Britain’s potential.

I’m sure there is plenty that could be done in the Midlands along the same lines (except they don’t have the existing airport where as the Northern area has two) and also links between Scotland and Edinburgh.


I take this as a 100% admission that you wish to attack the current Polish government by re-writing WWII history, as I suspected all along.The only question left to answer is are you stupid or are you purposely supporting them?


Eadwig. It is very clear that you support the RW nationalist Law and Justice party. I am critical of their attempts to hobble the justice system and critical of their attempts to outlaw debate which examines whether some wartime Polish citizens were guilty of anti-semitism or, indeed, committed anti-semitic crimes or collaborated with the Nazis.

Is that clear enough?



Yes. Your stupidity is 100% confirmed.

In all my years in Poland I’ve seen only one issue on which 100% of Poles agreed and that was their disgust at the use of the phrase ‘Polish death camps’. They were afraid ignorant people might actually believe Poland was in some way complicit.

This was of course seized upon by a right-wing nationalist, populist government as an issue. A heaven sent opportunity to be seen standing up for the honour of Poland and its people.

Anyone who tries to keep the issue alive is either a gleeful supporter of entirely stupid or just couldn’t care less - as I already explained. Yet you persist. People can read into that what they will.


Well, 3 million of them think enough to want to stay. I know quite a number personally, all very nice people, all very happy, all very glad to be here. These people aren’t stupid Pete, they know this is a political choice that is not motivated by hatred of outsiders. Its only a small minority of bitter, half-witted losers who think that. They just happen to be massively over-represented in this echo chamber.


Eadwig. I don’t want to enter a slanging match with you.

I was discussing the Polish law which forbids discussion of acts of complicity by Polish people in wartime anti-semitism. You have never once commented on this law despite having been asked. Perhaps this law intimidates even you?

I have never said that the German extermination camps were “Polish death camps”. Obama used this phrase and possibly others may have too in relation to geographic location. In my mind this does not assign ownership or the creation of those camps to Polish people. Nor do I believe that it would lead other to believe that those camps were not created by Nazi Germany.

Are you aware that even after WW2 ended that some Poles continued to commit anti-semitic crimes including murder?

Frog in a tree