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Brexit Wars 3

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#28263

As we know, an open and unfettered discussion about history is important in order that we may learn from them.

So, where is Poland today?

Over the past few decades, many Poles emigrated abroad seeking better jobs. This has been cited as one of the reasons Poles in 2000s have held some of the most pro-immigration, pro-refugee and pro-asylum-seekers views in Europe.[1] This attitude started to change around 2015, following the onset of the European migrant crisis.[1] Polish governments have not been supportive of the EU plans to distribute refugees throughout Europe, including Poland.[1] Attitudes towards refugees have worsened.[1] A nationwide poll from December 2016 showed that 52% do not wish for any refugees to arrive in Poland, 40% approve only of temporary resettlement, and only 4% approve of permanent resettlement. More Polish people were favorable of refugees from Ukraine than from Middle East.[6]
(Wikipedia)

Currently about 1 to 2% of refugee applications are accepted by Poland.

Cheers,

Frog in a tree


#28264

You are making exactly the error I pointed out initially. You are counting only the deaths of Jews, the numbers of which have never been disputed here at any point, so why all the quotes from different academic sources I have no idea.

You appear to be denying, for starters, 2.5m Russian prisoners of war starved to death as a matter of policy by the end of 1942?? I.e Within 18 months of the start of hostilities between Russia and Germany. How is that murder on this scale, fully researched and documented for years, can pass you by?

I’m truly astounded at the ignorance shown here and profoundly worried that it does indeed have its own motivation, as you put it.


#28265

Is that something exclusive to Poland?


#28266

Have they thrown away their passports, @HuwJarse, or are they keeping their rights to freedom of movement if and when it all goes belly up?


#28267

Is it too hard to say the words “Nazi death camps in Poland” instead of “Polish death camps" ?

Not hard is it?


#28268

You already did.

I wasn’t and clearly stated that I wasn’t going to be distracted by that when there are far more important issues at stake:

  1. The fact people like @arsanias think that the holocaust (small ‘h’, so we’re talking all concentration, slave labour and extermination camps) applied only to 6 million Jews

  2. That Poland as a nation was complicit (obvious nonsense).

  3. That Polish individuals were in some way more complicit than other nationalities, including those fighting with the Nazis.

First things first, lets get the accepted, documented history right before starting to worry about the current, pathetic Polish government. At the rate we’re going they’ll be out of power before we get around to them.

You see, your words quoted above just go to show that you haven’t read a word I have been saying or, indeed, the New York Times article about how the phrase “Polish death camps” proliferated after his speech, despite his apology. As we know, apologies in the media never make up for the smears, intentional or not.

I gave examples of Poles commiting the murder of Jews in the aftermath of WWII, but you clearly never bothered to read what I said, but still felt you had the right to comment on what you thought |I might have said.

I object to your phrasing also,

as though we couldn’t say the same about a couple of dozen other nationalities and that the Poles were in some way more responsible than others for the holocaust and wanted to have it on their doorstep.

What about this FACT - “Despite severe penalties, more Christian Poles have been recognized as Righteous Among the Nations—those who risked their lives to aid Jews—than citizens of any other country in Europe.”?

Let’s have some balance here, and some adherence to and acceptance of historical facts.

Then we can get all twisted about the right-wing populist Polish government, just one of many thriving in the current political climate stoked by the Kremlin, it appears to me, and othe vested interests, and certainly involved enough in Brexit to have swung the referendum result.


#28269

Why not just say ‘Nazi death camps’? there were plenty in Germany and other countries too.


#28270

Nobody is saying that JW. This discussion is in the context of Poland being in a state of denial or not for Eadwig) about the anti-semitism among its population.

Even after the war murderous outbreaks continued.

We all know that millions of Poles (around 2 million by most accounts) also died at the hands of both Russians and Germans. These victims must not be forgotten but it does no-one any credit to engage in competitive victimhood. Let us not forget that the greatest number of victims, by far, were Russian civilians.

Frog in a tree


#28271

There is still the possibility that both are correct.

There’s a difference. What Obama said was wrong or misleading. Gross and Grabowski are perhaps exaggerating, incorrect or whatever, but they have valid points. I’m more with Grabowski, because his work was a scientific publication and should be treated as that. Show that it’s wrong or accept the thesis until someone else can prove it’s wrong. That’s how science works

Then expose it as guesswork. I think the government knew why it resorted to generally prohibiting a discussion with the threat of going to prison instead of taking that as a reason for discussion and contemplation. A government should not do that kind of censorship. They think the publications are wrong? They should show where it’s wrong.


#28272

Yes exactly. But if someone wanted to refer particularly to the ones the Nazis created in Poland then the above also does no harm.

It removes the potential for those with a different agenda making use of a double entendre… like Froglet is hiding behind.

Froglet is now on full on attack on Poland… wonder what his agenda is now?


#28273

Eadwig,

I have never denied that there were also many many heroic Poles who took great risks to shelter jews. Indeed I said so in an earlier post. This does not erase the fact that some others were perpetrators and betrayers and, as we agree, that some continued murdering jews after the war had ended.

Frog in a tree


#28274

Westlette,

You are making yourself look ridiculous again.

Frog in a tree


#28275

No it isn’t. The discussion was in the context of Obama labelling Nazi extermination camps “Polish Death Camps” which came out of my response to your comment about the Jewish Holocaust being only a part of the Nazi holocaust that killed at least 12 million people.

You, and others, have tried to head off onto some current point about the Polish government.

The important point is that generations growing up today, including some involved here, appear to believe that the holocaust was the killing of 6 million Jews. Period.

Why don’t we discuss how that misapprehension has come about?

Judging from responses here, there has been a massive and at least partially successful re-writing of history somehow. We should discuss that before moving on to a much smaller scale attempt by the current Polish government to place restrictions on free speech with regard to this subject … along with Germany and Austria.


#28276

Froglet… re-read what you last posted:

This discussion is in the context of Poland being in a state of denial or not for Eadwig) about the anti-semitism among its population.

That the whole population of Poland? Every Polish person?
The Government? Because they’ve introduced potential for fines on slander?

You realise that in the UK you can’t say whatever you want too without being fined?


#28277

Kind of, at least in the western world: 1968 Polish political crisis


#28278

Yeah… “kind of”… you’d be hard pressed to find a country anywhere in the world where anti-semitic crimes including murder don’t take place excluding shitholes like Faroe Islands and Iceland of course.


#28279

No one said it did. Why do you keep harping on about it? What is it you have got against Poles? Why don’t you say exactly the same thing about other nationalities?


#28280

Hi Arsanias,

Thanks. IMO, from reading other sources, it seems evident that Gross shows no balance with his claims, whether they’re his or from others that he gladly reiterates. Clearly that’s what was being objected to by Poland’s government. Quote: "Polish Foreign Ministry spokesman Marcin Wojciechowsk] described Gross’s statement as “historically untrue, harmful and insulting to Poland.”

If we dig a bit deeper we see that Gross’s speculations & amateurishness seem a disingenuous method if seeking to start an honest, open debate.

During the first weeks of the war German fatalities in Poland, without including 3,500 missing Germans, were about 16,000. Fair to say some of the missing were certainly also killed & bodies never recovered. Add the combined German death toll from years of Polish Partisan activity, the Warsaw uprising, other rebellions in Polish cities & we can already best 30,000 Germans killed.

What about all Polish forces operations in other parts of Europe & North Africa, not to mention those Communist Poles who fought alongside Soviet forces on the Eastern Front?

Polish forces combined were the 4th largest Allied army in Europe.

The way Gross portrays matters, I can imagine asking my late Grandpa’ “Hey Grandad, what did you do in Monte Cassino & elsewhere with the Polish Corps?” Would he have replied: “Well lad, we did sweet FA. We mostly scratched our balls & drank tea. It’s a secret mind, but we let the other allies do all the fighting.” :slight_smile: Edit: typo corrected.

Quotes from other sources that may explain Poland’s reactions to Gross’s claims: “German losses included approximately 16,000 killed in action, 28,000 wounded, 3,500 missing, over 200 aircraft, and 30% of their armored vehicles. The Polish casualties were around 66,000 dead and 694,000 captured.

German losses during the Polish campaign amounted to 50% of all casualties they would suffer until their invasion of USSR in 1941; and the campaign that lasted about a month consumed eight months worth of supplies.[2]”

“German losses to the Polish partisans averaged 850–1,700 per month in early 1944 compared to about 250–320 per month in 1942.”

Aid to Jews: Further information: Polish Righteous among the Nations, Żegota, Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust, and The Holocaust in occupied Poland

Jewish prisoners liberated by Polish Home Army from German Gęsiówka camp during 1944 Warsaw Uprising

There was a substantial group of Poles who risked their lives during the German occupation to save Jews. German-occupied Poland was the only European territory where the Germans punished any kind of help to Jews with death for the helper and his entire family. Even so, Poland was also the only German-occupied country to establish an organization specifically to aid Jews. Known by the cryptonym Żegota, it provided food, shelter, medical care, money, and false documents to Jews. Most of Żegota’s funds came directly from the Polish Government-in-Exile in Great Britain.[3]

Most Jews who survived the German occupation of Poland were saved by Poles unconnected with Żegota. Estimates of Jewish survivors in Poland range from 40,000-50,000 to 100,000-120,000. Scholars estimate that it took the work of ten Poles to save the life of one Jew.[4] Of the individuals awarded medals of Righteous among the Nations (given by the State of Israel to non-Jews who saved Jews from extermination during the Holocaust) those who were Polish citizens number the greatest.[5] There are 6,339[6] Polish men and women recognized as “Righteous” to this day, amounting to over 25 percent of the total number of 22,765 honorary titles awarded already.[7]”


#28281

I think you discuss that in a twisted way. The Holocaust (does the H really matter?) means the extermination of Jews. Of course, many others were killed in the camps, but if we talk about Holocaust, than it’s about the 6mio Jews.

Nobody said Poland as a nation was complicit. Not once. That is just a way of dumping the discussion about individual Poles being complicit.

Nobody said individual Poles were more complicit than other nationalities. The whole discussion started at the opposite assumption that no Pole was ever involved in crimes against Jews. Gross and Grabowski showed that this version of the past is too clean and should not be taken as a matter of course.


#28282

Who said that?