Brexit Wars 3



I believe the League of Nations definition wasn’t about the bombing of a city as such, as the purposeful targeting of civillians.

Given the slaughter of air crew attempting to bomb by day and the even more inaccurate bombing by night there is a grey area left when attacking legitimate targets within a city is certain to also cause civillian casualties.

Sometimes Churchill did effectively veto some targets when they happened to be in French cities. Even so, allied planes killed many tens of thousands of French civillians, I forget the number but more than were killed in Britain during the blitz and V weapon attacks combined (approx 60,000 from memory).

The fact the Germans did purposely target civillians in order to block roads with refugees (and the actual strafing of civillians on roads as opposed to bombing cities) isn’t an excuse to allow our own moral standards to drop. Or is it?

Its an imperfect world and in total war lines will be crossed.

As for the American’s claims that they flew by day and their super bomb sight allowed them to hit only strategic targets within cities, this was poppycock when they weren’t flying in clear Arizona skies but in defended, often cloudy, European skies E.g. A whole wing of bombers that should have dropped its bombs on Dresden actually dropped them on Prague. Which gives some idea of how accurate the bombing was, even at a time when the opposition had become relatively negligible.

Dresden was a distant target, but had always been on the ‘valid’ target list, it was something of a fluke that it had largely avoided major attacks before Feb 1945. By then it was a major route centre just behind the German lines and the Western allies had agreed with Stalin to help his advance by bombing cities in the path of the red army.

Those who question the validity of the raid might wish to talk to the red army infantry men fighting soldiers brought up to the front through Dresden. If that changes their mind, then they might also reflect on the 100,000 plus red army dead it took to assault Berlin a few weeks later that Stalin thought was cheap at the price, when a short siege of the surrounded city would surely have seen a capitulation anyway.

Given the recent exchanges on this thread, it might be worth considering whether such attacks sped up the advance and thus the liberation of camps where thousands of prisoners were starving to death every day they waited to be liberated.

I don’t think there are any clear or right answers when it comes to this issue.


so thats your first and only benefit FOR brexit…
The Germans might just be worse off …

Thats the whole problem with Brexiters now they can not name a single positive FOR THE UK and will now rely on the hope that the Eurozone suffers so the MAIL EXPRESS SUN STAR readers can be told look how lucky we are…


thats a benefit ?? only
IF the Tories follow the EU ATAD law but as most of the Tory and Brexit backers are Tax dodgers thats a big IF…

Brexit is all about TAX avoidance…

  • EU brings out proposals for Tax Avoidance laws
  • Tories lobby EU against even naming Tax Havens
  • ATAD voted into law by EU
  • Brexit funded illegally by Tax Avoiding Billionaires
  • Tories block Bill in HOC to make Havens transparent
  • Brexit
  • Leaves UK bitter divided and worse off cost £130Bill and rising…

just a few here…


The Farce goes on…

Breaking News: Sajid Javid has resigned apparently he was told that he could stay as long as he got rid of all his advisers. He has refused & resigned. WOW the reshuffle going well then.

You wonder IF hes getting out while he can… He knows how Brexit is going…


Pete - Just as every month that goes by over the next few years will show Brexit to be a calamitous decision… this Government is going to fall apart over the next couple of years amidst squabbling over exactly how they have made the UK worse off and under even more control by the US.


yes JW this is still live

Sajid Javid: The only thing leaving the EU guarantees is a lost decade for British business


That’s one of the sad things about Brexit Pete… even those politicians who know that it will make the UK worse off (which is most of them) now are gagged or simply don’t see the point in telling the truth for risk of denting their political careers.

Your article of what Javid said 4 years ago is spot on… reproduced here:

I’m a Eurosceptic and proud of it. I think the Euro is a bad idea. I have no time for ever-closer union and I’ve long been a vocal critic of Brussels’ worst excesses.

But, just like Bank of England Governor Mark Carney and IMF head Christine Lagarde, I still believe that Britain is better off in. And that’s all because of the Single Market.

It’s a great invention, one that even Lady Thatcher campaigned enthusiastically to create.

The world’s largest economic bloc, it gives every business in Britain access to 500 million customers with no barriers, no tariffs and no local legislation to worry about.

It’s no surprise that nearly half of our exports go to other EU nations, exports that are linked to three million jobs here in the UK. And as an EU member we also have preferential access to more than 50 other international markets from Mexico to Montenegro, helping us to export £50 billion of goods and services to them every year.

Even companies that are neither exporters nor part of the export supply chain – your local corner shop, for example – benefit from the economic growth that kind of access brings.

And it works for imports too – British consumers benefit from lower prices on the things they want to buy, and British companies can easily import the raw materials they need to make goods. There’s no doubt about it, remaining in the EU is good for business.

Of course, the Brexit camp say we don’t have to be a member of the EU to benefit from all this.

That, should we vote to leave, Brussels would instantly offer us full and easy access to the Single Market and influence over regulations. All the good stuff, none of the bad.

It sounds like a no-brainer. But it’s just not realistic.

For one thing, even Europe’s biggest fan would admit that it’s hardly a byword for thrusting dynamism. As Iain Duncan Smith said this week, the EU only moves as quickly as its slowest member state – and getting 27 nations to agree terms for British access to the Single Market would simply not happen overnight.

Then there’s the nature and scope of any access agreement.

Today, almost 80 per cent of British jobs are part of the service sector – everything from that TV company to pensions to education.

It’s a sector with exports of £226 billion, nearly half of which go to Europe. But of the trade agreements the EU has with more than 50 countries around the world, not one gives service industries the same level of guaranteed access as the Single Market. Not one.

And this isn’t just an EU problem – the biggest free trade agreement in the world, NAFTA, doesn’t come close either. No free trade agreement does. And that’s because services are complex and highly regulated.

Unless the exporting country submits to the importing country’s rules and local regulator, access will be denied. Maybe the EU will break the habit of a lifetime and come up with something new just for us.

But I wouldn’t want to bet the jobs of millions of British workers on it.

Finally, the negotiations themselves would be extremely lopsided, giving the upper hand to our rivals.

Forty-four per cent of our exports go the EU, but only eight per cent of the rest of the EU’s exports come to the UK.

One of the advantages of EU membership is that we get to negotiate wider and deeper trade deals from a position of strength. If we leave, the boot will be on the other foot – and that will put Britain at a serious disadvantage.

The remaining EU nations will want to secure a deal that’s good for their economies. So Germany will want to protect its carmakers from British imports. France will want to protect its farmers from UK rivals. Even little Luxembourg will want to protect its financial services industry from the global hub of London.

And who could blame them? If I was in their shoes, I’d do the same. If Germany left the EU tomorrow, I’d make damn sure any trade agreement we reached put British businesses first. I’d be failing in my job as Secretary of State if I didn’t.

Business leaders from kitchen-table start-ups to vast multi-nationals are already telling me that the uncertainty over the referendum result is causing them to delay investment decisions, to think twice about creating new jobs.

If we vote to leave, that uncertainty won’t end the morning after the referendum. Even the most conservative estimates say it could take years to secure agreements with the EU and other countries.

Having spent six years fighting to get British businesses back on their feet after Labour’s record-breaking recession, I’m not about to vote for a decade of stagnation and doubt.

I can see why some people want to leave the EU. Arguments about national identity and sovereignty pack an emotional punch. But for anyone who cares about British jobs, it comes down to one key question.

Do businesses want the benefits and security of continued access to the Single Market, or the instability and uncertainty of a lost decade?


So the Liar Johnson junta is falling apart already as Javis jacks it in. Fun to see Cummings’ lapdog Sunak put in his job as a place man. Carrie won’t be pleased.

Liar Johnson will soon be seen to be what he is a charlatan who is incompetence on steroids.

However, I was delighted to see the humiliating sackings of Deadsome and Mcvey, two of the most vicious Brexiteer prehistoric, blood -sucking, vampire squids.





Back to the war and your assertions about Polish collaboration which I think was largely a case of coercion. Though we are both Francophiles we must admit that France was a far more “collaborationist country” under the Vichy Regime.

I watched an excellent programme last night on the PBS channel, an episode of the “Nazi Hunter” series regarding Paul Touvier who was a war criminal and was for many years protected by elements within the Catholic Church in France.

This was one example of the complicity of the Catholic Church with the Third Reich and its beliefs. I would contend that without the pan -European acquiescence of this powerful societal force and the supine Pope of the day, Nazism would never have risen and caused such vast destruction.




Prime Minister Cummings unveils his new manifesto:




Why doesn’t Johnson just install Cummings as chancellor and be done with it?

But I suppose he’s already running the country so can’t do both jobs.


not sure which one is giving the orders…

Javid on being asked to sack his staff.

" no self respecting minister would accept those conditions "



HJ - hi
Too right m8.
Just checked in after my hip operation & the laugh at their posts is the best medicine I could wish for!
Bad news for ‘Sir Bunsy Up His Own Ar@e’ is …
I survived


Pete - hi
They are probably (Like Philip Hammond - whatever happened to him?), all closet Remainer’s.
No doubt the new guy is processing the P45s as we speak m8.


Agree! There appears no coincidence that the largest Catholic area in Germany spawned and supported the Nazis in their anti-Semitism.
(typo edited)


Doesn’t really matter does it. What does matter is that the cabinet is now stuffed to the brim with Brexiteers and staunch BoJo loyalists. What that means is when its time to call the EUs bluff in the trade negotiations, it will be called with the full support of the cabinet. We won’t have the likes of Hammond, Rudd and Gauke threatening to resign and destabilise the government.

Its going to be a very different ball game this time round. Rock solid, united cabinet and a government with a majority of 80 plus.


HJ - good morning m8.
All true and uplifting to the soul.


Just what exactly is the EU bluffing about?

Same old Brexiteer mentality, fighting against an enemy they’ve dreamed up as a scapegoat themselves in the belief that they are going to give way in a deal.

News Flash! You can’t give up fantasy advantages. The government knows this, just listen to what the sacked cabinet members are suddenly saying. Taking on more fantasists isn’t going to change the hard reality when it comes to negotiating. If indeed anyone actually bothers, which I doubt.


Probably why they were sacked! :roll_eyes:


The EU expects us to align to their rules. We won’t, no single market, no customs union, no alignment. Not hard is it.