Brexit Wars 3



I’m certainly in favour of banning fireworks. (Chavs making loud bangs and burning money). I have already signed that petition.




Ah… now that explains things… “in a agreement with Economists for Free Trade”… I now realise where you get your data and quotes from… and why you can’t answer any questions yourself or have any logical views.
So… no reason posted why the UK will be better off than staying in the EU… not one… and not ever that I can see despite you saying you had previously.

Regarding: “As for the Ireland border question, there will only be a hard border if the EU decides it needs to impose one. If it does, so be it”

Well, anyone with a few brain cells can see that because the UK has (might) choose to leave the EU and that it directly follows that not being in the Customs Union (unless something else is negotiated) is a direct consequence of the UK’s action. Countries have borders… you can bury your head in the sand on this one but it will be the UK that has directly caused the potential for violence returning to the Irish border as with or without a trade deal, there will need to be a way of checking on the goods… either to work out the taxes due on them or to verify that they don’t need to be paid. That is just plain obvious so not down to the EU… just a fact as it is between say Germany-Switzerland.


OK Mr last word, whatever you say. Personally, I’m sure a solution can be found.

I’m surprised you ever leave the house given all the risks out there in the big wide world. Perhaps you don’t…


@HuwJarse Well guess what… that’s what the backstop is… the other alternatives mooted for those wanting to Leave were… a form of Customs Union( the Labour position) or staying in the Customs Union… or some other agreement… but No Deal gives none of those.

As for “I’m surprised you ever leave the house given all the risks out there in the big wide world.”… well it’s always nice to create risks when you won’t be the one who has to face the consequences.
A typical selfish attitude.


Not Brexit related (necessarily)… but equally disappointing:

You may be aware of this from 3 months ago:
In China, rhino horn and tiger bone may now be legally used in medical research or traditional medicine following a controversial announcement by the government this morning. The animal specimens may be obtained only from farms, according to the announcement, but conservationists say this surprising move may open the floodgates for a surge in illegal activity and threaten vulnerable animal populations.

Today’s news:
South African authorities have seized 116kg (256 lbs) of illegal rhino horn being smuggled out of the country.

Quite why some Chinese / Vietnamese call rhino horn a “traditional medicine” is beyond me… and further why some are prepared to pay so much for something that has no positive effect.
That quite aside from the point that they clearly don’t care about the animals being slaughtered for no reason.
Hopefully, someone will bring this up when we come to negotiate a trade deal with them… more likely we will agree to turn a blind eye to their increasing practice of creating rhino and tiger farms.


Its Professor Patrick Minford why would anyone quote this lot…


So what you’re telling me is that if we had little in the way of immigration and we stopped all health tourism then we wouldn’t need to import any ( significant amount ) healthcare professionals.
I thankyou for making the point. Those figures are similar to the ones I have.
I believe importing other countries nurses is to be avoided. Unfortunately the governments projections always seem to be of the Hans Christian Anderson variety.



What percentage of NHS patients at any one time do you believe are “health tourists”?



There has indeed been a plant built in Slovakia. The region qualifies for regional aid from the EU, the slovaks in turn have awarded 110M to JLR as an incentive and The EU commission has launched an inquiry to see if this money go round is in line with policy. Whatever their conclusion the deal is done. Cheap plants open in Eastern Europe and older plants here in Blighty will get the chop first. I expect there will be little JLR presence in the UK within a decade or so. Unless May succeeds in importing enough of the third world that our labour costs rival India’s. Business chases the profit.
Check the Coventry Telegraph


Thanks for the article C3.

It is a complicated issue. In a capitalist system, capital will aim to maximise profit. For JLR, Slovakia may offer an well educated workforce at low levels of wage. In the event of Brexit JLR will be positioned on the right side of the tariff wall in terms of free trade access to its major European markets. I note that the European Commission is investigating this move. I am not holding my breath. If we do become Brexit “rule takers” rather than “rule setters” we will, of course, be poorly positioned to resist future grabs for our industry.


Frog in a tree


Interesting that four single mothers won their case against the government’s Universal Credit rules which have caused chaos and loss of income due to entirely predictable problems caused by their pay intervals.

Lest we forget, IDS, who is supported by Brexiters on this board was the main architect of the harsh regime which is UC which is proven to work unfairly and irrationally. Amber Rudd to her credit, recognises the injustices in the UC system and is proposing some changes including the benefit cap to a maximum of two chikdren and the freeze in benefits. Rudd is, I think, a decent Tory and I think in the current circumstances will have the wind in her sails as the Tories run scared of electoral retribution.

Interestingly she was also quite outspoken in her opposition to a hard Brexit in an interview shown on Newsnight this evening.


Frog in a tree


I have seen some Lord or other state it was circa 2B or approx 2% of the NHS resources, but I have also heard from many friends I have within the NHS that much goes unrecorded, So the figure might be more. Hard to tell but it is significant approx 5.5 K nurses employed to meet this ‘demand’ plus all the associated costs. UK taxpayers are being robbed.


I see Brexit has screwed up our future energy supplies. 3 major infrastructure plans cancelled. Hitachi have cancelled 16Bn plant in Anglesey, coming after the cancelled Swansea tidal lagoon and Toshiba pulling out of 10Bn Moorside project. We need to make our country attractive to foreign investors. Why don’t people get it? In 20 years time we’ll have trouble keeping the lights on. At least Hinkley Point is coming … only 8 years over schedule … and ironically built by EDF (Electricite de France). Any coal left in the pits?


So C3, do you have any links to the data that health tourist require the NHS to employ 5,500 nurse to care for them?

As far as I can see, we spend nowhere near 2% of NHS budget on so-called health tourists. It is closer to 0.3%, a sixth of the amount that you stated.

The best data is here (2013):

I think also that we need to take care with the term “health tourism”. Most people would consider that this means people who travel to the UK with the specific purpose of obtaining NHS treatment on the cheap or free of charge.

“The government estimates that normal use of the NHS, by people who aren’t “ordinarily resident”, but who don’t come to the UK specifically to use the NHS, is around £1.8 billion a year. This can include holiday makers who injure themselves while in the UK or someone who gets sick while in the UK for work temporarily.”

So your £2 billion (£1.8 above) is the figure not just for deliberate health tourists but those who unintentionally require treatment while here.

“When it made this estimate in 2012/13 the government said it thought that about £190 million of this figure could be charged directly to patients and another £220 million charged to European Economic Area (EEA) countries under the European Health Insurance Card scheme.” The government estimates that normal use of the NHS, by people who aren’t “ordinarily resident”, but who don’t come to the UK specifically to use the NHS, is around £1.8 billion a year. This can include holiday makers who injure themselves while in the UK or someone who gets sick while in the UK for work temporarily.

Although we are only talking about 0.3% of the NHS budget, rather than 2%, it is important that as much of this is collected back from the patients or their governments and I guess that there is a fair amount of leakage. I would guess that other developed nations have similar problems.

At a third of 1% I don’t think I would describe this issue as a major one for the NHS.


Frog in a tree


We need less Students with resources used to fund or partially fund those trained people we need from scientists to nurses and doctors. Not everybody with a degree in sociology or media studies will benefit the country or themselves and might be better in training in a real job. The current system of exorbitant course fees for UK students is out of order, particularly when you see that loans given to overseas students have a very poor pay back rate.


So you think that MEP’s hold the power in the EU?
There are three pillars to the legislative structure within the seven pillars of organisation in the EU. Nobody but nobody except the commission has the right to decide what laws will be made… Parliament can sometimes suggest amendments while the council can always suggest amendments. Laws can pass with the agreement of both council and parliament but in many areas including justice & home affairs, budget and taxation along with fiscal aspects of environmental policy also foreign policy and macroeconomic co-ordination the council has exclusive Authority to legislate without reference to Parliament at all.
Parliament is a class b rubber stamp group. More power is wielded by the council of ministers but they can still only rubber stamp what is handed to them by the commission.
The commission and representatives on the council are both appointed by politicians from the respective countries.
So who does the UK have on the council?
Tim Barrow and assistant Katrina Williams.
Mr Barrow has an history as an ambassador, diplomat and civil servant. Ms Williams has a distinguished history in choice jobs in animal welfare and Defra.
Who do we have in the Commission? — Julian King - you know that famous (ha) diplomat and civil servant appointed to the commission by that pro EU and ‘I’ll throw my dummy out of the pram if you vote to leave’ politician Mr Cameron.
So we have three bureaucrats that have been elected by nobody for anything but appointed by our oh so patriotic leaders and these three hold more power than all of our elected MEP’s put together.
Appointments by governments to the council and commission are subject to approval by the EU??
You think the EU is democratic? In that case you must live on some other planet.
Do not waste my valuable time posting me some kindergarten response provided to the sheep in the population to keep them stupid and in line and think it to be intelligent , informed or remotely true.
If you research shares this well I am surprised you’re not destitute.
This is not a conversation. I have far more important things to do than debate with the ill informed.
The European parliament can hold up legislation in some areas but those that hold the purse strings in the EU can usually persuade enough votes to get even the worst of legislation through. In many areas they may have no say whatsoever. The parliament is primarily a monkey show for the masses.

Oh and incidentally I never mentioned anything to do with benefits. I believe no one at face value, I view EU immigrants as the least damaging in society and I hold other views of which you are completely unaware but too ready to assume and castigate me for like some animalistic Antifa/momentum maniac.
Grow up.


So you rely on government estimates. That in themselves are based on a restrictive view of what may entail health tourism.
People that don’t come to the UK specifically for health treatment. According to who? I am sorry , but you do not expect me to believe the government do you? You know that government that under Cameron said’ If the British People vote to leave then I will take Britain out of the EU’ or the next administration that said’ Brexit means Brexit’ then came up with the biggest betrayal of our country in 3,000 years ( or more).
Sorry no, but quoting government sources is a recipe for a quick death.


Sorry C3, but you provide no evidence whatsoever. It seems that you are so suspicious of the British civil service that you simply disbelieve the detailed summary reports that they produce.

Surely, if you take this position you must have better sources of information? Perhaps you are gleaning your views from social media?

I will say that you appear to take a very dim view of foreigners.


Frog in a tree


FIAT - good morning

Even so, it should be stopped and could be very easily.
Any money not recovered from ineligible patients in a year should be deducted from the salaries of health trust executives.
I’m sure they would then find a quick way to stop this abuse.


JAR, Grayling should surely due for the chop. Have you considered putting yourself forward as his replacement?