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Brexit Wars 3

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#6330

@john.a.reeves I have no “anti-American feeling”. Seeing as I work most of the time now in Houston and most people I know are in the US, I have a lot of empathy with most Americans

I haven’t ignored that at all. If you read what I actually posted rather than what your own mind assumes I said… then I was very clear I refer to US forces and their various Projects from the 60s onward.


#6331

I’m not sure why you mention the Balkans war of the 90s. The US policy on that (along with all Western countries) was abysmal.
If you believe that there was a nasty war going on then good ol’ NATO tuned up, bombed the place from 30,000ft then the nasty war stopped and hey presto the baddies were defeated and the goodies won… then that’s up to you.
I advise that you read around subjects and find out what really happened and why, and get more educated before you make your usual ill judged comments that just show your own stupidity.


#6332

Of course Brexit was about locking foreigners out. Plus it was about kicking out the ones who are here. To one degree or another all the Leave voters I know are xenophobic or outright proud to be racists. For example:

D. (An engineering worker). “They should blow up the refugee boats (in the Mediterranean) that would stop it overnight. And the BBC should not have reported children being washed up on the beaches, because it only gets them sympathy.”

G. (A builder). We need to machine gun the lot of them here (Muslims). My only worry is that we’d run out of ammo."

B. (An old farmer) " England will rise again once we stop these foreigners coming here claiming benefits".

I could go on. And on. I hear this stuff all the time. I just cannot believe the naivety of some of the posters on these boards. The whole Brexit thing is a racist project and that is why the Leave campaigns concentrated their propaganda at stirring up these crude nativist fears.

Dog whistle xenophobism suits most politicians as it diverts the attention of citizens from their years of failure on real issues. And even many MPs in the Labour Party are running scared of opposing Brexit because of this wave of intolerance against people who are “different”. They are cowards and should be ashamed of themselves.

IMHO,

SBK


#6333

Today’s figures:
Actual. Exp
UK GDP. -0.4. 0
Man Prod. -0.7. 0.2
Construction output. -2.8. 0.2
Industrial production. -0.5. 0.2

Yes, they are only one month’s figures, but, they all came in below estimate.


#6334

Yes, I noticed.

Grim numbers.

Probably get worse.

soi


#6335

My point, as you well know, was about the EU not NATO. You lot keep banging on about how its responsible for all peace in our time. My point is that it is beyond useless when a conflict breaks out, especially on its own patch. But hey, you keep clinging to your little fantasies.


#6336

There has not been a war among EU members since the foundation of the EC back in 1957. NATO hasn’t had much to do with this.

Cheers,

Frog


#6337

An interesting summary of Failing Grayling’s serial cock-ups on R4 “World at One”. There have been many distasterous decisions, and many of these have been overturned in the courts. Such is the scale of the series of shocking decisions it is hard to think that he would not have been advised of them by his civil servants. Has this man got anything at all between his ears?

If HMG was a business he would have been sacked years ago.

Come to think of it, HMG is a business isn’t it?

Frog in a tree


#6338

Wow… so you think that the EU should be responsible for solving conflicts and war even where the participants aren’t in the EU? I think that would be rather difficult… don’t you?

Increasing trading ties and dependencies between member nations is the main way that the EU has at least assisted keeping peace in Europe and that can only be a good thing in that regard.


#6339

SBK,

That seems more so a reflection on some of the company you keep, whether by choice or unavoidable circumstance. Many might say Brexit was at least a bit more complex than what you portray. A lot of of it undoubtedly came down to an angry backlash against years of punitive Tory austerity policies & the repercussions of that, but also partly against the perceived lack of accountability in the EC.

Comments like your’s need some perspective as they add very little that advances these debates. - Regards.


#6340

A very balanced post from you, as usual, Jack.

However, I have to say that while my Leave voting friends were not quite so violent in their views as SBK’s my experience is that less well educated Leave voters usually expressed race or xenophobic reasons for voting as they did. Mostly my friends are well educated and generally voted Remain. I am not saying that ALL Leave voters are racist or xenophobic (for the benefit of BM1!) but certainly from friends and acquaintances that’s how it panned out. Furthermore, all the polling data confirms that immigration was the main issue at the referendum for around 40% of Leave voters.

I might also make the point that arguments about “unelected bureaucrats”, “make our own laws” and “sovereignty” may well be more polite forms of xenophobia, among some, but not ALL, Leave voters.

No doubt I will have upset a few Brexiters. If so, so be it. Just because they don’t like to hear this stuff doesn’t mean its not true.

Cheers,

Frog in a tree


#6341

Hi Fiat,

We may agree, having concerns about immigration & xenophobia aren’t necessarily synonymous. One can have the former without the latter. Some of these concerns are more about growing pressures on affordable housing, high rents, stretched vital public services, et al. For eg. if Brexit causes UK house prices to fall for a few years & puts them within reach of more working-class citizens, then some Brexit voters may feel vindicated for that alone. That’d be understandable to some of us.

Repeating, even by mere impute, that concerns about immigration arose mainly from xenophobic tendencies doesn’t make it more true. No matter how many times it’s repeated. More likely, it makes people more defensive & less open-minded to different points of view.

My own background has more to do with the rough & tumble of the relatively less educated working-class. Those who struggle to get by day-to-day. For all the benefits of EU membership, the reality is that a lot of this class were badly let down for years. Brexit was the backlash. The deeper reasons for that, IMO, go well beyond xenophobia. - Regards.


#6342

Jack,

This is a very good read, an MP who actually bothered to ask her constituents.

It is pointless trying to reason with Frog and his ilk. They’ve made up their minds, they’ll just bang on about stupidity, racism and xenophobia. Worth noting that none of the leave voters this MP spoke to mentioned immigration.

FWIW, I go back to the Financial Crisis as the catalyst for the Leave vote. Up until then I think most voters believed (wrongly) that MPs and bankers generally knew what they were talking about on economic and financial matters and were prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt. That trust was shattered forever, especially in the North where building societies like Northern Rock were going down the pan and people thought they might lose what savings they had. The response to the Financial Crisis was QE, great news for the asset rich who benefited enormously from rising asset prices. Useless for the poor who have seen years of stagnating wages coupled with government austerity and rising rent and house prices.

I think it’s over for politicians and for the 2 party system. There is zero faith in parliament now and any sort of Brexit betrayal is only going to make people more angry (leaving to join a customs union and staying in the single market is not Brexit). Corbyn has angered a lot of people by refusing to back a second referendum but I don’t blame him. Personally, form a political perspective, I think he’s played a blinder with Brexit. The Tories have dug themselves an inescapable hole. I’m actually amazed that a party normally so good at regicide has sat back and allowed May to bring them to the very edge of oblivion. They are like rabbits in the headlights, oblivious to the forthcoming electoral wipeout and their inevitable fate.

I’ve asked remainers time and time again what the positive case for the EU is, I’ve still never received an answer. Only nebulous (and disputable) claims like the EU is responsible for peace in Europe since the second world war (nothing to do with any other factors). They can only ever couch their arguments in project fear terms, the old “you’ll all be so much worse off if we leave” rubbish we hear time and time again. The average man in the street must be asking themselves if the EU is so great why has my standard of living been dropping for the last 10 years. As far as I can see, at no point in the EU referendum campaign, or any time since its conclusion, has any remainer sought to answer this question. If you think your personal situation is getting worse, you are never going to be persuaded by an argument that says change can only make it worse still. You are going to roll the dice and that is exactly what happened.

Most people on this BB are deaf and blind to this reality. They’ve learnt nothing.


#6343

@HuwJarse

This is distilled from the New Statesmen article you posted.

It was a poll of 7 people (not knocking that… that’s fine to get anecdotal views on why they voted as they did).

Here are there reasons for those 7 in Voting Leave:

  1. "…losing more and more power to Brussels and wanted that to stop. "
  2. “… they have too much control over too many things and it’s becoming like a one-party state”
  3. “…gradually they have been taking money off us, then controlling us, telling us how many fish we can catch.”
  4. "…the nearby Derbyshire town of Shirebrook is now known as “Shirebrookski” because of the high number of Eastern European people who have come over to work in its infamous Sports Direct warehouse and it is now a place that the natives do not consider as a place they would or could work. "
  5. "Tony said that he had seen wages for British brickies go down since Eastern European builders have come over and worked for less – even as little as £3 or £5 an hour. He was as concerned for their standard of living as the British natives’ because he said they are living in sub-standard shared accommodation and gang masters line their pockets at their expense. “It is happening all the time and the poor little Poles are getting no money and living in a crappy caravan somewhere,” he said.

So… they gave 5 reasons that are reflections on being in the EU.

Two of those reasons I would class as “Immigration” related… that’s 40% of the total reasons.

Given what Julie said in (4) I would also class that as potentially either a racist or xenophobic remark in saying “the natives do not consider as a place they would or could work” (we would have to question her further to find out what she meant to be sure).
So racism/xenophobia could be 14% of the reasons people voted to leave the EU based on this analysis.

The above fits in neatly with what Frog and SBUK said.

However, interesting that of the 7 questioned, one, (Paige) has seen the light and said: “I voted Leave…but if I had known further down the line this would be happening I wouldn’t have,” she told me. She describes the referendum campaign as “big words and broken promises” and wants “a chance to put it right.”
So if 1 in 7 (14%) have now changed their mind… then #BrexitRef2 when it comes is only going one way.


#6344

So you’ve never received an answer @HuwJarse to that question? I could embarrass you and point to all the times that you’ve been given answers to the above… but can’t be bothered… you will only say the same thing again in a few days time.

Let’s go back to just 3 hours ago where I said:
“Increasing trading ties and dependencies between member nations is the main way that the EU has at least assisted keeping peace in Europe and that can only be a good thing in that regard.”

Are you disagreeing with that statement? Note I didn’t state that the EU is the only thing stopping countries going to war… that would be as ridiculous as your statement.

Let me remind you of something that you won’t be able to disagree with.
And this is just ONE reason…

Almost every financial institution based in the UK within a month would have gone Live with their new cash/operational flows through new/re-purposed EU state legal entities. They are doing this as financial passporting has been sacrificed as part of Leaving the EU.
As an example, UBS go Live with theirs in 2 1/2 weeks.
So… usually… for their non-UK business it is being moved so that it flows through an EU state entity (say Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Paris etc.).
Quite apart from the loss in trade to the UK, loss in jobs within the UK… the loss in Corp Tax to the UK’s HMRC is significant. For some outfits, more than 2/3 of the tax that used to be paid to HMRC will go elsewhere.

So what you might say? They’re only Bankers? It isn’t the Bankers jobs that matter too much… the relatively small number affected will quickly find work elsewhere. It is the loss of tax that matters as it will need to be found elsewhere or the UK will suffer cuts in Services.

Well, there’s something we can agree on at last. For those who have little: not much money or few prospects… then voting to Change something in either a Referendum or a GE rather than the status quo is obviously going to be a no risk game for them… ie. if things are so bad then how much worse can they get.


#6345

How refreshing to read something on here that’s not complete garbage , Frog wants to somehow drag everything and everyone down to that classic xenophobic racist attitude of Leave voters, when will he and his band of followers learn its not about racism.
As for that clueless poster banging on about the loss of tax revenue? What planet do they live on these posters these that think the city pay their dues…He is starting to believe his own nonsense even tho HUW you’ve managed to make him look stupid on numerous occasions, :grinning::grinning::grinning::grinning::grinning:…benefits of remaining in the EU ? lol.
Seriously…How they are allowed to post this tosh on an investment site is beyond me, Those that lost need to get over it.


#6346

It’s difficult to understand the point you are making there @Whatyoutalkingaboutwillis as the grammar needs so much work.
Are you saying that the City doesn’t pay “their dues” today?

Well I can assure you that they do pay large amounts in tax to HMRC if you were in any doubt.
The point is that the amount they pay to HMRC will be shrinking and instead going to EU states… thanks to the implications of Brexit.


#6347

JW - good afternoon

So the over 116,000 and over 276,000 Americans who died helping free European countries in WW1 &WW2 can be ignored then?
JAR


#6348

I’m not clear on your point @john.a.reeves
Noone has suggested that the people who gave their lives fighting in WWI and WWII should be forgotten. There are many thousands dead from all countries: Soviet Union, US, UK, France etc. and all are remembered for their sacrifices. This has nothing to do with that.

Or do you mean that because the US fought against the Nazis in WWII that we should forever and a day be dependent on the US?


#6349

A good post JW,

It is quite a waste of time trying to present facts to Huw and his kind. They are so prejudiced against the EU they can see nothing wrong with those who voted against it and, worryingly for supposed investors, they cannot see the damage that Brexit will cause to our country.

Cheers,

Frog