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Brexit Wars 3

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#6390

Yeah, intelligent input darlin


#6391

Huw,

You are still arguing about the definition of “Little Englander”.

I know that you are still living in the 19th century but things have in fact moved on. You are correct when yo describe the 19th century definition of the term. In the 21st century we have a handy reference facility called Wikipedia. Maybe you have heard of it?

Wiki says that in modern usage Little Englander means:

“The term is sometimes used[5] as a derogatory term for English nationalists or English people who are perceived as xenophobic or overly nationalistic and are accused of being “ignorant” and “boorish”. It is sometimes applied to opponents of globalism, multilateralism and internationalism, such as those who are against UK membership with the European Union[citation needed].”

I think that the current usage of the term as described above is pretty much how most of us would undertand the term. Do try to keep up!

Frog in a tree


#6392

A person obviously living in the past…or using a historical definition to confuse matters or to try to prove a point. Time moves on, our use of language changes…I suppose Hugh speaks Latin in his house.

Later usage
The term is sometimes used as a derogatory term for English nationalists or English people who are perceived as xenophobic or overly nationalistic and are accused of being “ignorant” and “boorish”. It is sometimes applied to opponents of globalism, multilateralism and internationalism, such as those who are against UK membership with the European Union” [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Englander#Later_usage]

It’s on Wikipedia so it must be true :wink: I wonder if Fiat is a contributor to Wiki?!


#6393

You will not. Comply with EU rules and be a member of the common market or deal with higher barriers and do less trade. Is that so difficult to understand?


#6394

Complete the opposite is true. Remain lost because Leave lied and told people that everything would be better.


#6395

Frog, let me try again. Using your contemporary definition of the word please explain to me how a leaver can simultaneously be nurturing dreams of empire and a Little Englander?

Are we Schrodingers leavers?

I’m not “arguing” over the definition, I’m simply pointing out it is impossible to be both of those things.


#6396

This may be true, we Remainers are in a state of grief. But there’s 1.4 Million Leavers in that coffin.

We can vote again, they can’t.

IMHO,

SBK


#6397

Eadwig - good morning

Sorry m8 - seem to have upset you (and some others) with my earlier anti-EU post. Normal response of ‘knee-jerk’ insults as expected.

One interesting point you raised is that Europhiles think that the EU isn’t perfect and (I quote):
‘‘The fact is, I never once heard a single Remain leader or voter call Europe perfect or not acknowledging that various areas could or should be reformed. Not a single one.’’

Unfortunately, you didn’t give any example in your post of these areas.

In the spirit of balance, although I’m anti -EU, I do acknowledge that it has promoted trade and stopped Germany invading it’s neighbours since 1945 (a regular practice previously 1870, 1914 and 1940).

Perhaps now might be a good time for the you and the Europhiles on this site to list where you think the EU isn’t perfect.

JAR


#6398

Well the day after the stupid Brexit vote my sister was in a queue in the Baker’s and an elderly chap was intoning with misty eyes that we’d now be able to go back to feet and inches and pounds, shillings and pence!

Very many Leavers I know would like to turn back the clock on immigration to pre “Windrush.” Although as one Leaver admitted to me recently this would not happen and he said: “The damage is done.”

IMHO,

SBK


#6399

You chaps might be interested in reading this…


#6400

Huw,

Either you are really stupid or being deliberately provocative. Whichever it is, I don’t really mind.

To help you understand how imperial nostalgia infects Brexiters perhaps the following articles will explain better than I can and in any case will save me a deal of effort.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/31/brexit-and-britains-delusions-of-empire/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bc909f6bbdd0

Perhaps very symbolic of the imperial nostalgia of some of the leading Brexiters is the choice of decoration for their ministerial offices as explained here:

These guys are all old enough to have experienced history lessons at school where the maps were liberally splodged in pink denoting the colonies and teaching a rosey tinted view of the glories of British Empire and little of the bloodshed and pillage that sustained it. Given the public school education they will have been imbued with a sense of British superiority which is entirely at odds with today’s international co-operation and interconnectedness.

Cheers,

Frog in a tree


#6401

You still haven’t answered the question though have you Frog. I’ll assume from your answer that Leavers are not Little Englanders then (as they cannot be both).


#6402

(Most) Leavers are Little Englanders because they wish to withdraw from international co-operation with their continental neighbours. They imagine that they can do better by negotiating individual trading agreements despite lacking the negotiating clout of the larger EU grouping. Brexit is basically a form of isolationism. I note that John is proposing big cuts in the international aid budget which again is very consistent with isolationist tendencies.

Truely, Brexit will turn us into a nation of shopkeepers, assuming that Amazon and Ebay don’t close down all our shops first.

Frog


#6403

The UK was involved in more military conflicts than Germany over the centuries. Should we thank the UN that it has stopped the UKs regular practice of invading other countries, not only on the continent, but worldwide?

A couple of years ago I was in Buenos Aires and saw this painting.


(“La Reconquista de Buenos Aires”, portrait depicting the surrender of Beresford to Santiago de Liniers during the British Invasions to the Rio de la Plata)

The Brits tried twice to conquer Argentina. Germany never tried a shit like that.

The war in 1870 was declared by France. WW1 is now commonly regarded as a failure of all involved countries. To put all the blame exclusively on Germany in Versailles plus hilarious reparations was one of the reasons for WW2.


#6404

You can also include other campaigns that are largely forgotten: Iceland, Vietnam (several times) and Cuba.
In fact, if you include the attacks made by British pirates/Privateers sanctioned by the state… then 90% of the countries around the globe have had some form of British military presence imposed on them at some point.

I suspect you will find lots of old paintings similar to the above hanging in a lot of countries.


#6405

agriculture and subsidies is the biggest issue
the parliament needs full recognition and more power towards the commission
the EU needs a true constitution
foreign policy needs better backing by the member states


#6406

Mind you the Germans were big in “The Scramble for Africa”.

IMHO,

SBK


#6407

I think the UK has to grow mature a bit. I don’t get it how building the empire can still be considered an achievement or something glorious. It was with blood and steel. Nothing to be proud. Germany has now a completely different stance on its military past - where I would like to add that the latest war (WW2) overshadows everything that was before where the country was not particularly expansive or militaristic. Prussia was much less than France or the UK.

Even the colonies in Namibia, Cameroon an Tanzania were pretty much debated. Bismarck considered them expensive and useless like “the fur on the coats of destitute polish nobles”. Happy to hand them over to the UK and thereby keeping Germany in a better memory than the colonial successors, just because the last evil is the one that stays in memory.


#6408

Arsanias - hi & thanks.
As you would expect, I agree these areas are ones of concern. The problem is - will they be addressed?
Agricultural subsidies - France particularly is ( and will), resist reduction / reform
More power for the Parliament - I suspect it will require some formal agreement/ treaty change which is likely to be resisted by the Commission and many states
True constitution - definitely would need a treaty change(chance of happening = nil)
Member states backing a foreign policy- all 27? ain’t going to happen
The last two are manifestations of further integration towards a ‘federal’ Europe / ever closer union. Still EU stated policy (in existing treaties) but now politically unacceptable.
Will be interesting to see if any others will respond!
JAR


#6409

Perhaps JAR, you might like to explain the drawbacks with Brexit?

Frog