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Brexit Wars 3

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#12209

I find the idea that the substance and ideals of Farage lack behind the two main parties fantasy, their last two manifestos were only a pack of lies that should have been hung on a nail at the back of the toilet door, going for a referendum on the subject was shear fantasy, and the division of the country by both the labour and the conservatives economic policies between the north and south of the country have alienated a large number of the electorate.
When it comes to knowing his target electorate he leaves the so called brains of the country, and their substance trailing.


#12210

Pete, the reasons the motor companies are leaving this country has as much to do with our existing governments policy on pollution and congestion charges as anything to do with Brexit.
They are responsible for the fall in sales, introducing massive first year road tax hikes, congestion charges, and a difference in the cost of the fuel at the pumps.
At the moment the average motorist would be mad to buy a new car.
And the future car manufacturing will move to Africa and the Middle East countries away from Europe whether we like it or not, especially when their governments start to give the companies subsidies.


#12211

Your post is not at all convincing DD. In fact it sounds a bit desperate. Brexit is not the only factor but it is the major one. There is no escape for these companies from policy changes designed to protect the environment.

It is not only car companies that are leaving the country. Other are too.

Frog in a tree


#12212

I am not trying to convince anyone Frog, as a matter of fact I am not that bothered, it is nothing I have not seen before being employed the whole of my life in the mining and energy industry on the engineering side.
I have seen good men and jobs disposed of with very little sympathy in large numbers, in fact in some cases very unsympathetic views on their plight ,and in some cases glee.
But the sun has come up the next day, life has gone on, and in many cases the quality of life, time spent with families has improved.


#12213

I think one of the massive issues facing the country that is not being discussed because of Brexit is this very point I.e. There has clearly been a huge error in the past in assessing pension benefits and it should be addressed by reducing those benefits rather than passing the burden on to younger people who can expect less themselves.

That’s just part of the moral issue. The fact we have several major companies that are slowly sinking under the weight of their pension obligations is by no means another minor factor. It hasn’t been anything more than slightly addressed. People I left school with and still have 12 years to work at BT are still looking forward to a final salary pension.

… and if BT were to fail? As just one example … Well, they get their pension reduced by 10% and the tax payer picks up the rest… I.e the younger people who are paying for their further education, which the elders on better pensions did not, will be expected to foot the bill either through direct taxes or more expensive goods from companies obliged to pay into the fund that covers pension failures.

I’m sure I don’t need to make the obvious point about the Brexit vote that ties in with the above situation…

It is an economic time bomb waiting to go off and every chance the younger generation will vote with their feet by emigrating in greater numbers than if they had the option of freedom of movement throughout the EU.


#12214

Farage calls himself a great salesman, JD, but you are correct how experienced interviewers can rattle him (from the admittedly little I have seen).

Good salesmen don’t waste time with an obviously over-tough prospect, they move on to their next lead instead. Fortunately for the country (I hope), the crossover between salesmanship and a good politician is only partial and Farage wont be able to duck enough embarrassing questions to do anything significant outside the Eu elections.


#12215

Eadwig, how can the present workforce expect the same benefits as previous generations when we are constantly told that production performance is falling.
Is it because they are not as good? don’t the present work force like work? should they be allowed to have a gap year? should they be starting work at 14/15yrs old like previous generations? should they be members of a union?should they not be able to vote until 21 yrs of age? should they do 2 yrs national service at 18 yrs old? should we really be giving them everything their heart desires?


#12216

Eadwig, do you know a good politician? answers on a postage stamp please, because Farage is ruffling their feathers on their home ground, and I don’t think they have an answer, all he has to do is call their bluff.


#12217

DD,

All Farage has to do is to follow the populist script and give simplistic answers to complicated questions. The first page of this script is always that it is some else’s fault and not our’s. Take your pick from Romanian Strawberry pickers, migrants, refugees, feminists, gays or muslims or the EU.

There are some serious imbalances in our society. I don’t see a shortage of money. Look at the pay of our CEOs. Look at the cascade of dividends that pour into investors’ accounts. The problem with increasing income inequality is that as wealth slowly accumulates to the already wealthy that the rest have less to spend and the economy gradually stagnates.

One of the most serious imbalances is is between the incomes of the young and the incomes of the old. Pinning back ISA allowances and increasing inheritance tax would do a lot to release money that could reduce income inequality.

On productivity, again the balance is wrong. Low wages give little incentive to industry to invest in better plant. Add to that the threat of Brexit and businesses are holding back investments until they can see a profitable future and Brexit certainly isn’t giving them confidence. The erosion of trade union membership has been a disaster for workers.

Going back to Farage, did you see him on Andrew Marr? That it was so easy for Marr to research Farage’s dubious sayings over the years should give you pause for thought. Relaxing gun laws? Privatising the national health? His thoughts on immigration? His embarassing behaviour in the European Parliament. Farage simply appeals to peoples’ base prejudices and has no solutions to offer. It is not for nothing that he enters the European election without a manifesto.

Cheers,

Frog in a tree


#12218

Yes. Not many in significant positions in the main parties right now though. A curse of our times.

Farage can ruffle feathers in certain areas but is clueless in others. Most probably because they don’t interest him in the slightest and he can’t be bothered to ‘learn’ the arguments.


#12219

PTN - hi,
No,
JAR


#12220

Frog, he doesn’t have to, or want a manifesto, the other parties have done that for him.
All he has to do is point out the two main parties had a manifesto’s in the last election, and told lies in them.
When I go to Castleford Coopers manifesto promises are on every wall ridiculed, she would have been far better keeping her thoughts to herself, the political class have shown themselves to be completely out of touch, they will be punished, Farage knows that, and is the one letting them hang themselves.
Now they are resorting to character assassination he will choose not to appear on chat shows, he will get exposure elsewhere, and like on politics today the better speakers in his party will come to the fore, he will continue the rounds of the country at rallies, it is the new way, and while labour and the other parties put up the same old rhetoric they have repeated for three years, getting nowhere and boring everyone he is on a winner, they do his job for him.
The lady on today’s programme got more out of smiling at the other parties bickering, and just calmly making a point, and they carried on, not realising it while you could see her thinking fools.


#12221

Farage should know about lies. He is an expert in telling them, like his mate The Groper.

Cheers,

Frog


#12222

There you go frog, just a repeat of things you posted many times before, the sme response you posted to other people last year and the year before, it doesn’t work mate, it is old hat.
Just like the two old tired main parties.


#12223

It may well be the case that I said these things before but unlike Farage I don’t lie or deny what I said previously. What was true then is true now.

Farage got well and truly whacked by Marr simply by repeating back to Farage what he had previously said. That man is not a serious politician…he simply plays to the gallery. Populist from top to toe. And you know it.

Cheers,

Frog


#12224

Hi Fiat,

Much agree. A huge problem facing economies like UK’s is that for many years now we’ve increasingly seen vast wealth being generated in entirely unproductive ways. For eg. rich property speculators have made vast sums by inflating housing markets, whilst generating zero benefit to others or society in general. Corporate Goliaths like Amazon see already vast profits rise further still, whilst adopting increasing automation to replace menial jobs.

Just one reason why Labour’s idea of a “Citizen’s Basic Income”, trialled with mixed results elsewhere, may be viable. Though it’ll cost most of us, I’d rather pay more into the system & see fewer of my fellow citizens either struggle in chronic poverty or become destitute.

By the by, encouraging to see Labour increasingly edging away from any compromise with the deluded May. Mind you, that was never going to happen anyway. Hopefully that now increases more pressure on more MPs into finally accepting that a 2nd Vote really is the best way to break this impasse. Otherwise, one can see UK being stuck in this ridiculous limbo well beyond the extended deadline of 31st October. Sadly, no way out of this mess without leadership willing to grasp reality. - Regards.


#12225

Yes, it seems to be the case that both Labour and Tory MPs are urging their leaders to pull out of the bilateral discussions and surely it will happen. The question is “then what?” Normally in these situations the right response would be to call a general election but in the current circumstances the outcome would be very hard to predict with the Brexit Party and Change UK added to the mix. Even if there was a general election it is doubtful that it would deliver a parliament that would be able to reach a decision.

Providing that there were clearly defined options to vote for a second referendum could deliver a definitive decision but in the current circumstances and given the balance of opinion in the country no one could really be sure whether Leave or Remain would win.

Perhaps fear of losing Brexit might ultimately persuade Brexiter MPs to vote for May’s deal? But who knows really?

Cheers,

Frog in a tree


#12226

Jack, I am now 72 yrs old, and I have never in my life voted for any other party but Labour all my life, and have canvassed for them in the past, both in local and national elections.
My father died in 2014 aged 93 yrs old and had done the same all his life, every day I used to call in on him in his bungalow that he treasured, where weeds needed planing permission to grow. where the medals from a second world a war spent in Burma were on show.
When he got less mobile there was a general election, and I offered to take him down to the local polling station.
His reply was “I am not Bothered none of this lot are worth voting for I wasted six years of my life fighting for this lot”, I was shocked rigid.
The old lad was years before his time, he had them sussed well before me.


#12227

says everything about you and the arguments you dont have for Farage OR Brexit

heres another He goes to the USA tells them all about divided Black/white communities in Oldham… but
Nigel Farage forced to admit claim about black people in Oldham was false in case you dont want to read it…
he said
"But they are Asian areas. They can call that black or whatever you need to call it.
"But here’s the point. Even today in 2019, you’ve got one ward in Oldham that is 97% white, and the next door ward, which is 66%…"

This claim is also false.
According to the most recent census data, there is one ward in Oldham - St Mary’s - which is 66% “non white” - which includes all ethnicities other than white.
However none of its neighbouring wards are 97% white.

Shows how gullible he sees the UKIP EDL types that they would think the EU was anything to do with Asian areas of the UK. If we have to search for workers after Brexit guess where a lot will be coming from and with cultural/family ties cant see your Tommy Robbo people being happy…


#12228

Hi Donnydaws,

I’m sorry, but not at all surprised, to learn that your elderly Father felt so disillusioned about politics towards the end of his long life. No doubt many of his generation, & many younger citizens since, will have shared his cynicism. For he was right to feel that way to large degree. He’d have seen much of the same lies & populist bluster repeated many times over. Other reasons abound. Too many broken promises, manifestos left unfulfilled, years of cutbacks often penalising the most vulnerable, totally avoidable damaging & very expensive wars, et al. One could cite many other fine examples.

IMO, our electoral system seems dated, broken & wholly unrepresentative of the increasing political diversity now evident in this nation. People say, let’s keep the FPTP system as at least it keeps the extremists out. Indeed it does. But the FPTP system also excludes much fairer representation from many more moderate MPs like LibDems, Green Party, now Change UK, et al.

Frankly, I’d rather have that & also some Brexit Party MPs in Parliament, than enduring what is principally a two-Party system that delivers more of the same & seems ever more divisive. - Regards.