Brexit Wars 3



Watching DA Pennebaker’s film “Don’t Look Back” on Dylan on BBC2 just now, it was hard not to listen to “The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll” without thinking of its resonance in today’s America.

Frog in a tree


just watched “blinded by the light”
Story of Pakitani kid who loved Springsteen.
nice film true story but background in the late 70s early 80s of Paki bashing Nat Front etc

be nice to think weve moved on as a country but with FARAGE UKIP EDL maybe weve just come full circle.


I am planning to see it next week. Chadha is a good director with Bend it Like Beckham and Bhaji on the beach in her kitbag.

Frog in a tree


SBUK - hi

Preparations going well I see. Have you got yours ordered yet?

_Brexit: Chancellor plans 50p coins to mark UK leaving EU
10 August 2019 BBC

The coin will look similar to a previous design - but with a different departure date.
Chancellor Sajid Javid is drawing up plans for millions of commemorative 50p coin to be issued when the UK leaves the European Union later this year.

Mr Javid has asked officials to see whether it would be possible to produce the coins in time for the UK’s scheduled departure date of 31 October, according to the Daily Telegraph.

His predecessor Philip Hammond planned a collectors’ version of the coin.

However Mr Javid hopes to mint a similar 50p piece for mass circulation.

Government officials said the move was a statement of intent that the Treasury is dedicated to leaving the EU.

Typo edited


It should be noted that my comments here the other day about the hypocrisy of the Cummings trousering EU farm grants whilst savagely condemning such have been picked up by the quality press.

In fact they’ve only been getting 20 K p.a. so it must just be a hobby farm. Loads of the Aristos and big farmers get doled out £1 Million + a year just for the burden of owning lots of land. The principle of their cynical hypocrisy still stands.

I also see that Dim Cummings likes to read in a purpose built bunker on that farm. I guess he knows what a post Brexit Britain is going to be like? Pity this wrecker doesn’t stay in it permanently.




SBUK - good morning

[quote=“Sir_Buns-Up_Knealing, post:19176, topic:1145436”]
picked up by the quality press.

The Guardian – 10 Aug 19
In all this Brexit turmoil - its good to see you’ve retained your sense of ironic humour


Probably best to mint them without a date eh?

By then the 50p will be like the 10p was a few years back thanks to Brexit.



Some truths in your piece but arguments need to be accurate.

Sheep dipping was banned 20 some years ago, due to the harmful effects of organo -phosphates on humans. Instead they are sprayed along their backs with a systemic insecticide. This prevents them from getting fly struck in the summer months and eaten alive by the maggots of the green bottle fly (the only one that consumes live flesh). This is the worst possible sort of death. The prevention spray is usually administered after shearing. “Clipping” as it is known also prevents fly strike and this is the main reason for doing it as wool has a low market value.

In centuries past wool was a very valuable commodity and it can be argued that the invention of the machine spinning of it was a beginning of the industrial revolution. Indeed, the wealth of Britain was built on the wool trade alongside colonialism and slavery.

I would say that in general sheep, out of all farm animals in the UK have the best of it. Especially compared to over - milked cows and shed bound pigs. The latter having a very short lifespan. Breeding Hill sheep in particular (where most of them are) have a very natural life in the open air, eating their herbivore food and rearing young which often are kept for 18 months.

So its a choice in the above some sort of reasonable life or no life. Much harder an existence in fact for wild creatures which are either brutally murdered by each other or eventually starve to death. The life of most people is not so much different to that of a sheep: get born, get herded through school, & work, have a family and bear its attendant woes, then die a miserable death, probably worse than that of any sheep.




Of course not so long ago Javid was a staunch Remainer. Somebody minted 20 pieces of silver for him. Another self- serving hypocrite putting his career ahead of his true beliefs.




[quote=“john.a.reeves, post:19177, topic:1145436, full:true”]
SBUK - good morning

The thing is that “The Guardian” is the most read British newspaper in other countries throughout the world, so its take on things is what them foreigners see. Obviously the gruniad benefits from being free to readers. Whereas mugs like you actually pay to read The Telegraph or The Times just to reinforce your crude prejudices.




I do buy my Guardian to support it. Also have the daily email with a few selected articles which is free.



Good on you Frog. I don’t pay for it myself on the basis that I am a miser. But I do contribute in supplying them with quality material free of charge.




That’s not quite correct from what I’ve read in the past on this. It was never banned as such… the Government simply stopped making it compulsory for sheep to be dipped in OPs as a matter of course.
And yes, you are right some stopped dips and used sprays… but they are still around and always have been.
There’s one in active use on a farm 200m away from where I run an animal sanctuary on a small patch of land incidentally and at certain times of year I see them there using it.

Here’s recent evidence too:

Yes you might be right that they have the best of it… but that’s not saying much. It says more about the disgusting treatment forced on the rest.

As for natural life, almost every aspect of it is controlled by the Farmer. Wild, free animals don’t stand around in freezing conditions and snow. They find shelter… except often sheep aren’t provided any… hence the large numbers of deaths.

Ewes are forced into producing more lambs at the ‘wrong’ time of year. Every year some four million newborn lambs – about one in five of the total – die within a week of few days of birth, mostly from disease, exposure or malnutrition.
Being born in winter obviously puts lambs at greater risk of exposure, but earlier pregnancies also mean unborn lambs may be at greater risk from insect-borne diseases during the summer, such as Schmallenberg virus, which can cause deformities and miscarriages.

Yep… well certainly most people in the “civilised” world have a large element of choice in their lives. Things might not work out great for them but few suffer from being forced onto another mother from birth, slaughtered after 6 months, forcibly raped but in the main having lives well short of what they could have been.


Weird about the sheep dipping because I know dozens of livestock farmers across two counties and none of them do it. Scab is a rare thing, so must be a special need for it in the above cases.

Au contraire , nearly all wild, free animals die from injury, starvation or cold if they have not been killed by a predator first. Winters are a cruel culler of many species, especially birds and small mammals. People when out in the countryside look but they do not see what is really going on.

One other point, its a bit overkill to describe ewes as being “forcibly raped.” They are put to the tup when in oestrogen. Copulation would not take place without the “willingness” of the ewe to stand.

Though I’m very much against cruel practices myself where animals are concerned it is a mistake to attribute anthropomorphic notions of morality to them. For example I have regular arguments with farmers who attribute such terms as “cruel” and “greedy” to such wild species as buzzards and foxes. Every creature is just trying to survive in a cruel world.




Thank heavens human rapists don’t get away with saying she was in season so asking for it.
For the ram… an electric probe is inserted into his anus and directed downwards so that it bears upon his prostate gland… a button is pushed and an electric shock administered to make the ram ejaculate and causing immense pain to the ram.
I’m sure that some humans… maybe Trump… pay for such treatment but I don’t think it’s being anthropomorphic to say that these animals are being forced.

I well know that animals in the wild have a tough time and some predate on others… none of that detracts from the basic point that there’s no need to eat meat and support these industries that are about mass management and control of the much-shortened lives of other creatures.


Your last paragraph is correct in that there is no need for humans to eat meat, especially in the developed world.

The bit about the ram is presumably in relation to the harvesting of semen for IVF in cases of high breeding of lines of top class animals. An extreme niche thing. It is not as you would imply a normal way of things with millions of animals. Again you are directing human values on ewes. It is a natural urge for all species to want to breed. If you watch rams in a field they do “court” the ewes; there’s a routine of interaction. They don’t have dating sites.

Your original piece also made it seem that sheep dipping was the normal way of things across the country. It isn’t. I have checked and you are right there was no outright ban on OP dipping and I saw the story about the man up north who was doing it to control scab. He must be mad. I remembered that more than 20 years ago I had a conversation with an agricultural contractor who undertook seasonal dipping. He told me that he’d packed up doing it because he knew several other contractors who had developed cancer or had become incontinent - by the age of 50 - and had to wear nappies. He also said of the OPs that he reckoned most sheep would die of such poisoning but that would never be noticed as nearly all would have entered the food chain by the age of 8 -10. On some old maps you occasionally will see “Sheep dip” marked on a stream, where in many decades past days they would damn it off and dip their sheep in it and then let the water and the chemical go downstream! Its not such a pretty picture out there in the countryside nowadays as people would like to believe: huge amounts of insecticides, molluscicides and other gunks are dumps on the crops we eat. Hope you all have had a good Sunday lunch?

Back to sheep: in the case of “Scab” the mites cause the affected sheep to itch and rub itself on fence posts or trees until its wool falls off. Untreated it may literally itch itself to death. Almost as bad as being eaten alive by maggots. In such cases the farmer has a choice to let the animal die, treat it or prevent such attacks happening in the first place by “cruel” practices, such as shearing. You say that sheep can live up to 17 years. Indeed I have know hobby farmers who have had pet sheep who have made it into their 20s. But in such cases they have had all the treatments and mollycoddling available. It is not the case that in the wild (original Mouflon sheep) would make it to such an age. I read somewhere that wild sheep typically live 4 - 6 years. It would depend on which part and climate of the world they were living. In all cases wild sheep would face a huge range of diseases and parasites. Any small injury would be fatal. Foxes, wolves, wild dogs, even birds of prey would snaffle lambs up in the absence of human shepherds. Any way you cut it the countryside is not a picture on a chocolate box.




heres the design…


Well worth a read:

Don’t despair. We may be living through an attempted rightwing revolution, but its foundations are rotten. There may be a counter-revolution, as there is after every revolution, and it will be built on much firmer ground…



More on dipping.

This time a proposal for the punishment of politicians and journalists caught lying:


“Cucking stools or ducking stools were chairs formerly used for punishment of disorderly women, scolds and dishonest tradesmen in England, Scotland, and elsewhere.”

I would propose that such apparatus of justice should be located along the river Thames. It would be logistically closer to the majority of offenders and maybe just long enough to accommodate all of the miscreants at one time.




Yes, another good piece by Will Hutton. Whilst we can see that revolution is often followed by counter-revolution, it may be a long time coming. Hutton’s article seemed to me to be based on optimism but without much basis in evidence.

Let’s say he is correct that Brexit leads to economic chaos and widespread poverty and also that The Groper’s leadership in the US leads to revulsion and mass feelings of insecurity as social tensions and extremism take their toll, there could just as easily be a doubling down by the forces of the right and its supporters to shore up their power and privilege.

If there is indeed hope that rightwing hegemony can be overturned both here and in the states, it will be through the anger and enlightenment of educated young people who find that their futures, security and freedoms are being stolen from them and who then fight to restore liberal enlightenment. It would be a very long road to travel. For us, if Brexit turns out to be a disaster it is by no means certain that the decision could easily be reversed, if at all.


Frog in a tree