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Portfolio Positioning For Brexit Vote

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#262

Well, if I were you I would be all over your brokerage. The LOD was 49.515, if your brokerage is direct access, your trade would go directly on to the order book (SETS). Either way you have been screwed. If you go on the LSE site and register, you can see all the trades. You should demand compensation from the broker. If they don’t play ball go directly to the Financial Ombudsman.


#263

You need to understand what ‘in progress’ means and what ‘pending’ means, because unless your brokerage manually places orders on the orderbook (which I don’t think happens), then they have screwed up. The only other possibility is that you lost internet connection. There simply is no excuse if they received the order.

I haven’t used UK brokerages for 20 years. They are sheer amateurs. Try Interactive Brokers or even Saxobank.


#264

Hi Again @Swamp_Cat,

FYI here is a link to what my broker Hargreaves Lansdown says about limit orders…

Good luck if you decide to pursue a claim, it’s pretty clear that I’d have little chance of success if the same thing happened to me though. In fact it HAS happened a couple of times, and as I say the only real solution is to keep an eye on your limit orders (especially if they are particularly critical ones) and to place them manually if they don’t get actioned when the price conditions are met.

ATB

Pref


#265

If your broker has DMA (direct market access), your order goes directly on to the order book. IB have it, even IG have it.

If your brokerage is passing the order on to a RSP (Retail Service Provider), who in turn places the order, you are at a disadvantage, HOWEVER, it should only take a matter of a few seconds for the RSP to place the order on the book. You as the client are contracting with your broker, therefore, if the RSP messes up, it is nothing to do with you. The brokerage cannot pass the buck. It is simply contract law. You give the brokerage an opportunity to make good, if, they try and fob you off, you go to the Obudsman. It costs you nothing.


#266

Hi @macbonzo,

Well as I think I said I wish him luck if he decides to pursue a claim. Maybe his broker will view the situation as you clearly do.

But if you read my brokers terms and conditions (link previously provided) then it’s pretty clear that i wouldn’t have much chance of success in the same situation.

ATB

Pref


#267

Best thing to do initially is for @Swamp_Cat to ask his Broker X-O directly.
X-O is Jarvis Investment Management so they will just use a number of other Executing Brokers.


#268

Hi @Swamp_Cat,

Well I realise that we all think differently about our investments, but if it were me the reason I would be miffed about the limit order not being filled was missing out on the opportunity to buy at a price some 2.2% less than it finished on Friday. Plus consequential loss of future income perhaps. In capital terms probably not a large amount of money approx 2.2% of your £15,000 say ~£350 at a guess ?. Still a worthwhile sum though I recognise.

Of course any OTHER cash in your portfolio has been similarly disadvantaged, hence my distress over the cash I have earmarked for investment in SEDY and IAPD, as described in an earlier post. But then these are largely invested in overseas stocks (Asia, Australia and EM) which didn’t rise to the same extent on Friday. I may get another chance to buy lower there in the coming days if I’m lucky.

One of the often quoted maxims about markets is that you can’t afford to be out on those few days a year when the market rises strongly. Friday was certainly one such day, I think only one stock in the FTSE 100 was down that day, hence my regrets.

Wishing you all the best with your investments, as always. Hoping you achieve your target price on LLOY at some point.

ATB

Pref


#269

I understand.

I am getting this deja vu feeling at the moment, because I clearly recall the iii debacle last year. I’m very annoyed Swamp Cat has been “mugged” for £350 and accepts it.

I understand you have read the T&C. You have read them as an (educated) layman. As a former solicitor, I understand, many companies go to great lengths to ATTEMPT to disclaim liability in their
conditions of service, however, that does not mean they can. You need to look at case law to establish what is reasonable,

What I do know is that Swamp Cat conveyed his limit order by electronic means to his broker AND his broker received it. In practice, the broker only needs to click a mouse to send it to the RSP (or directly on to the SETS order book) and the RSP clicks a mouse to put it on to the order book. In my opinion the process should take no more than 7 seconds.

The only defences the broker would have would be 1) the connection with the RSP/exchange was down at that point, or 2) there was a problem at the exchange. Anything else, just won’t wash.

My guess is that the brokerage was understaffed, at the time of year, and the order was not picked up. That’s not acceptable.

If Swamp Cat, calls the broker he will be offered some vacuous excuse followed by some “free trades”. Let’s put it another way. If you contract with a plumber to install a new boiler in your house and the boiler turns out to be faulty, who do you pursue? The plumber. He is liable for purchasing a faulty boiler and he needs to rectify the situation.

I think we all have a duty (to ourselves) and other traders to challenge brokers in such situations. Swamp Cat is out of pocket due to his brokers incompetence. If the broker does not send him £350, then he should go directly to the Financial Ombudsman. At the very least, the broker, will waken up and offer him something. It is the right thing to do.


#270

Hi @macbonzo,

I have no idea whether @swamp_cat intends to pursue his broker over his failed limit order. If he does I really hope that he is successful.

ATB

Pref


#271

As stated above Pref, my order switched from “in progress” to “pending” I didn’t want double as my strategy was to top up further drops that may come.

No intention to persue anything guys, it’s just bad luck in my opinion and these companies will surely have their T’s & C’s wrapped up nicely.

The limit order once placed is surely held on their server in house until expiry or fulfilment.

However I may consider swapping brokers.

Pref, I’m learning from the traders on here that you can’t afford to always be invested. Yes you’ll miss days like Friday but then again folk talked me out of selling at 62, they nearly did at 56.5 and now it’s hovering around in low low 50’s.
To think I could pick the one 2% rise in recent market trend and not be involved with many of the bigger losses would simply be too hopeful.


#272

Personally, these things make me mad. I do respect your decision not to pursue it, however, you have been mugged for £350

I recommend Interactive Brokers. They have DMA are are self clearing.


#273

I’ll look into them MacB.


#274

Yes £350 loss is annoying too as my last tranche purchased at 53.5 are down a good few quid, the relief would have helped.


#275

Hi Again @Swamp_Cat,

A few points regarding your previous post if I may:-

  1. Your broker must surely provide the facility to display the status of all your outstanding limit orders and for you to cancel any that have yet to be filled ?. That would eliminate the potential doubling up problem, thats what I do in these situations anyway.

  2. Transferring brokers can be problematic. You either have to
    a) Sell everything, transfer in cash and buy back your holdings - which can be very expensive
    OR
    b) Do an “in specie” transfer of your holdings. This can take quite a long time (weeks ?) during which you cant trade.

  • Also any kind of transfer can go wrong due to administrative errors. I remember reading several horror stories on these boards about people who transferred from ii to other brokers and had things go wrong.

  • Thats not to say that you shouldnt do it, there can be significant advantages - lower trading costs, ability to hold multiple currency accounts etc. etc. But just be aware of the potential issues as well.

  1. Regarding being or not being invested in the market. Traders and buy and hold investors are likely to have very different and quite probably contradictory views on this topic. Also your personal assessment of market risks will likely also be a significant factor. In the end you have to come to your own decision. As a buy and hold investor you wont make any money if you arent invested, but you wont lose any either !.

ATB

Pref


#276

Thanks for the advice pref, regarding doubling up or cancelling, it was not as clear as you make out. The other points are very good information thanks.


#277

SC,

Despite obvious disappointment in not getting an order filled, I see where you’re coming from in not pursuing this. It happens with other brokers too &, as you say, no doubt they’ll be covered in their legal terms of service. The only interest would be knowing what their official explanation might be.

One’s mindful that X-O is a discount broker. One of the cheapest going in UK. That doesn’t mean one expects substandard service, but all discount brokers are liable to have minimal staffing. Especially at certain times of year.

I imagine a number of orders didn’t get filled in that brief window, so this will cost them too in commission. Unlike spread-bet providers, proper brokers have no financial interest in not filling client orders.

As others note, limit orders are in a queue system. Those nearest the SP get filled first. If SPs move too fast, some orders remain unfilled. Of note, X-O send their client orders to various Retail Service Providers. If they can’t fill orders, only then are they routed to X-O’s trading desk.

I’ve been considering adding a discount broker to my current one, ii. Top of the list are X-O & iWeb. I don’t think your experience would put me off as even the likes of ii & Barclays (not discount brokers) have occasionally been criticised for failing to fill limit orders. It doesn’t happen often, but it’s by no means unknown. - Regards & GL.


#278

Hi JD,

How are you?

It has now cost him £500. That is quite a lot of commission. Patently the service is substandard. What’s the point in saving a few pounds on commissions when you lose thousands due to incompetence? Is it not like using Purplebricks to sell your house, then complain you are not getting a full service.

In terms of challenging the brokerage. It absolutely can be done. The problem with the British investors is that they are accustomed to cr@p service. Seriously try IB.


#279

Why haven’t you sent a secure message to X-O asking what happened?


#280

Hi @macbonzo,

Ah but do IBRK fully support UK ISAs and SIPPs ?. Looking at their web site I think they might do SIPPs but not ISAs. Personally I wouldn’t even consider using a broker that didn’t fully support my choice of tax shelter, that being ISAs in my case.

The advantages of holding all of your investments in an ISA are huge IMHO:-

  1. No capital gains tax due on any transactions
  2. No income tax to pay on any of your dividends
  3. No need to complete ANY information in respect of investments on tax returns, which for me means NO tax returns to do.

Well unless labour get in and change all of the rules that is !.

Much the same advantages also apply to SIPPs I think (I mainly use ISAs myself), though you do have to pay tax at your marginal rate if you withdraw any cash from your SIPP I understand. The big advantages of SIPPs that I am aware of though are as follows;-

  1. If you are still working then can make large contributions which HMRC then ADDs a contribution to based on your marginal tax rate.
  2. If you keep all your money in a SIPP then when you due then it does not form part of your estate and can be passed to your descendants completely free of inheritance tax. A critically important feature if you can squirrel enough money away in a SIPP.

The advantages of fully exploiting these tax shelters is SO significant there is no way that I would consider operating without them. If you are a UK based investor and are not fully exploiting these benefits then you really should consider doing so. This could be THE most important investment decision that you make all year.

If you need more details (or to check the details that I have outlined above) then you should consult a tax expert !.

Happy Tax Free New Year !

Pref


#281

OK all, I have at least sent a letter of complaint with the threat of the ombudsmen should I not receive satisfactory compensation.
I wasn’t going to but I should at least be given some answers. I will escalate to the ombudsmen too, it really is poor considering the sp hit 49.51 and my order was 49.75.